Surge is a Success!!

[30A Skunkape]

An inconvenient snip of celluloid from the archives:
YouTube - Al Gore Criticizing Bush 41 on Iraq in 1992

Geesh, did Al let himself go or what?

 

[6thGen]

Or, we could just do what Israel is doing with Fatah and Hamas in Gaza. Step back and let them both do our bidding. And leave lots of guns and bullets laying around on our temporary retreat. I may have to trade in for a Hybrid, but I can live with that.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Well, I hate that you missed your call as a diplomat. I?m very good at what I do, so I stick to that. Since I?m not a diplomat, I look at what is presented and make determinations accordingly. I couldn?t live with your plan because I believe it would be wrong to turn a blind eye to whatever reality the Sunni government reinstates. I also don?t believe that splitting up the Kurds would work well either. I?ve been for Turkey?s entry to the EU for a while, and I thought that was our State Dept. position as well. How do you plan to quell sectarian violence, specifically increased Shia violence that will no doubt ensue as Iran sends young men south? Oh, and who is negotiating your plan that I must support? Are you taking the red eye to Baghdad tonight?

Rambling, as per usual.

So you don't agree with my plan based on your feelings, you don't have any well thought out reasoning behind it -typical.

"How do you plan to quell sectarian violence ...as Iran sends young men south?" _What the hell does this mean? Do you have any evidence to support an assumption that Iran is going to 'send young men south'?

Give me a break.

"Are you taking the red eye to Baghdad tonight?" -6thGen, I would truely be embarassed to have expressed such a lame rebuttal.

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Timmy,
Notwithstanding trying to reinstate the Sunni governemnt, what does one do about the Shiites? THey are currently extremely drunk with fanaticism, growing in numbers and will probably not be inclined to relinquish their tentative power right now. Curious to hear your thoughts?

Well there is no way to sugar coat my answer so I'll just have to state it as it is-

The Sunnis will have to re-establish their control thru force with US backing. It will be very ugly, lots of people will die and it will represents a horrible human rights situation.

Again, I think my idea is an AWFUL scenario, but if our goal is to stabilize Iraq and reduce the regional pressures to our allies in the gulf then I think this may be the only way to do it. I can only suggest a solution based on the current situation, which Bush et al have gotten us into -and I'm afraid there simply are no good solutions.

 

[Cheering472]

The need to prove in print with sited examples (which has been done and proven by the way) isn't really necessary for me. But thanks Scooterbug.
I am a lying husband's worst nightmare, a woman with a good memory. I never forget a thing. Want to know what was said at my wedding rehearsal dinner 28 years ago?

I don't need to see reminders in print. I can recall vividly the times I saw, heard or read the words from Bush, Cheney, Powell and Rummy as they told us, Congress, the UN etc, that we were in immediate danger of Hussein and his WWD's. They repeatedly tied him to 9/11 and my memory is fool proof on this. I would think anyone with access to a TV or any printed media can use their memory as well. From their moving mouth to my ears, with no liberal media slanting involved (I saw it on Fox News too) they had me believing we were about to be attacked. They made Congress believe it too, so yes across the board we were lied to. Why do we need to continually reprove this to those who have conveniently forgotten it or refuse to see it even when it's in front of them?

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Oh and Chickpea,

My plan would require the abandonment of the Neo-con dream of re-inventing the middle east thru establishing democracy in Iraq.

I don't see any representative government being established in Iraq any time soon, just the reality of what Iraq is. Too divided along religious and ethnic lines.

If by some miracle, a weak form of democracy could be established, I think it would only be a Shia dominated government who would be dis-inclined to represent any sort of pro-Western position and it would spark a dangerous Sunni -Shia power struggle in the entire mid-east.

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Keeping a base there as we do in Eygpt might not be a bad idea, but I think our presence/meddling is viewed as part of the problem and adds feul to the fire rather than helping extinguish it.

Creating a Kurdish state will be like adding another Isreal to the region. Due to past problems & persecution they would be very jittery and we would have to keep them supplied and backed up militarily.

Thank you Scooterbug, this is a reasonable criticism.

Our continuing presence would indeed be problematic. I can discuss a few ideas to suppliment the plan I outlined earlier but it might take a while .............

The point I am trying to make here has more to with a strong criticism of Bush's policies, including the 'surge' because I feel there is no reasonable chance of success. I can only 'outline' a possible alternative but clearly it would take a team of experts and pages of details to really address every aspect.

I just wanted to point out that there are alternatives that should be considered, (hopefully someone can come up with a better one than mine) and that we shouldn't simply default to the 'surge' plan.

 

[6thGen]

Rambling, as per usual.

So you don't agree with my plan based on your feelings, you don't have any well thought out reasoning behind it -typical.

WTF are you talking about? I really don't know why I bother because you are not capable of some sort of intelligent discourse. I don't believe that we should replace one evil empire with another. Do you think that will bring us back in your beloved world community?

"How do you plan to quell sectarian violence ...as Iran sends young men south?" _What the hell does this mean? Do you have any evidence to support an assumption that Iran is going to 'send young men south'?

Uh, the current situation. Slip away from DailyKos and watch the news. It's pretty well undisputed that Iranians, Shiites, are creating a lot of violence. Under your pie in the sky scenario, we either have to assume that Iranian Shiites (doesn't even include Iraqi Shiites) don't have momentum and an increased motivation to fight against the installation of a rather unfriendly neighbor, or that it will end up in a drawn out war which we have to stay involved in. Which brings us back to square one.

Give me a break.

"Are you taking the red eye to Baghdad tonight?" -6thGen, I would truely be embarassed to have expressed such a lame rebuttal.

No, your arrogance has flown right on by ridiculous into a silly caricature. Here's what you said "Unless you can lay out a scenario under which the ?surge? will get us to a stable Iraq faster and better than my plan (an address the underlying factors that created the instability in the first place), then I suggest you reconsider your support for it." That's asinine.

 

[kathydwells]

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/beatdeadhorse.gif

 

[NoHall]

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/beatdeadhorse.gif

Finally. This thread had an inarguable position. Thanks...