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Chickpea, Bob

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And at least back up that Sharon wasn't worse than Arafat. Or are you saying that was obvious hyperbole?

Arafat was horribly divisive and has regrettably done irreparable damage to the Palestinian cause. His passion and anger were understandable but his tactics, character, and ethics were NOt honorable.

I have no idea how to even begin to compare Sharon to Arafat - I know that under Sharon's guidance, Palestinians suffered great losses and hardships as well as a continuation of seeing their rights eroded and their territory confiscated and handed to new settlers - all whilst the conditions of their lives deteriorated. Towards the end of his life as PM, it seems that he finally understood that he would need to start dismantling the illegal settlements that had flourished during his tenure as general and PM and that he conceded that Palestinians had a right to a homeland. Ironically, in his more mature age he became more moderate![/QUOTE]

For someone that knows so much about an area, an has so much understanding about an area, you cannot even back up your own rhetoric. The best you can do is that under his guidance, "Palestinians suffered great losses and hardships". No thought to why that could be of their own doing, or of their own leadership's doing. Yea, that's about on par with murdering athletes, blowing up schoolbuses and suicide bombing. What kind of understanding do I need to be able to condone such acts? Thanks.
 
6th Gen,
I will NEVER manage to persuade you that IMHO, Israel bears some responsibility for instigating and provoking the Palestinians. There were hundreds killed at the massacres of Sabra and Shatila (and I have no desire to engage you in what Israel concluded about Sharon's motives) - there have been scores and scores of innocents killed when Israel bombs in retaliation (be it in Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank, etc).

Without fundamentally conceding that in war, tactics are often messy, indiscrimatory, violent and agressive, then we can agree to simply disagree. You condemn the Palestinians for resorting to terrorist tactics that target civilians yet you still categorically refuse to even attempt to get to root causes of hatred and anger. Then you ask me to give you a similar example of Israeli acts of terror - it is not so neat and it depends largely on what one considers an act of terror. Subjecting entire generations to the status and conditions of refugees is one such act in my eyes. You can continue thinking that Israel is only defending its rights and is more honorable in their strategies - they are not.

In retaliation. There is your key. Israel has no cheeks left to turn. And why won't you engage me on the findings on Sabra and Shatila? Show me a better investigation that proved Sharon's complicity. I don't believe you understand that your statements are racist against the Palestinians themselves. We should not expect them to act civilized, because that is all they know. We should understand their hatred, anger and terrorist tactics. My parents and grandparents grew up when blacks were inferior, and the excuse was that it was because it had always been that way. That was all their generation knew. Do you want to excuse the acts of violence earlier in this century? There were reasons behind turning water canons and German Shepherds on blacks in Selma, but that doesn't excuse the actions. The fact that you believe that the Palestinians and Israelis are equally honorable in their tactics is reprehensible. Your arguments represent the tantamount of excusing and condoning terrorism, because that's all they know, and that's the only way they know. Sound familiar?
 
In retaliation. There is your key. Israel has no cheeks left to turn. And why won't you engage me on the findings on Sabra and Shatila? Show me a better investigation that proved Sharon's complicity. I don't believe you understand that your statements are racist against the Palestinians themselves. We should not expect them to act civilized, because that is all they know. We should understand their hatred, anger and terrorist tactics. My parents and grandparents grew up when blacks were inferior, and the excuse was that it was because it had always been that way. That was all their generation knew. Do you want to excuse the acts of violence earlier in this century? There were reasons behind turning water canons and German Shepherds on blacks in Selma, but that doesn't excuse the actions. The fact that you believe that the Palestinians and Israelis are equally honorable in their tactics is reprehensible. Your arguments represent the tantamount of excusing and condoning terrorism, because that's all they know, and that's the only way they know. Sound familiar?

You understand nothing and your views are as uneducated and reprehensible to me as mine are to you - take this as my final post to you. Continued confirmation of what our original thoughts on each other are.

I am done with you - over and out - feel free to post as much as you want/like - I literally have no patience, energy or use/time for you.
 
You understand nothing and your views are as uneducated and reprehensible to me as mine are to you - take this as my final post to you. Continued confirmation of what our original thoughts on each other are.

I am done with you - over and out - feel free to post as much as you want/like - I literally have no patience, energy or use/time for you.

What defense is there, Chickpea? You've resorted to namecalling when you can't answer the question. If it is uneducated, lead me to credible reports that show Sharon was complicit in the massacre. You can't do it. Calling it uneducated when I am giving you historical facts is nonsense and a copout. All you have to do is admit that the Palestinians acts of terror are indefensible. Can you do that without qualifiers?
 
Western Fictions, Arab Realities
Getting real.

By Jonah Goldberg


I have been scouring eBay for the last couple of days, hoping to snag a one-of-a-kind item. But, alas, it hasn?t turned up yet. I?m looking for the late Yasser Arafat?s Nobel Peace Prize. It was looted from Arafat?s Gaza compound by the victorious forces of Hamas, a jihadist group backed by Iran and Syria that has routed the once-mighty forces of Fatah from power in Gaza. According to the Jerusalem Post, a Fatah spokesman added: ?They stole all the widow?s clothes and shoes.?

The widow in question would be Suha Arafat, Yasser Arafat?s photo-op wife. Who can blame the looters for wanting to grab as much of her swag as possible? First of all, she wasn?t using it. Suha hasn?t been to Gaza for years. And her favorite shoe designer is Christian Louboutin, whose wares can fetch about $1,000 a pair, which is more than many Palestinians make in a year.

But it?s that peace prize, won by Arafat, Shimon Peres, and Yitzhak Rabin for agreeing to the 1993 Oslo accords, that really captures the lunacy of it all. It?s the perfect reminder for everyone, myself included, of the Arabs? refusal to yield to idealism, hope, or good intentions ? and the West?s refusal to recognize reality.

?The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are missing,? former Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser once said. But from the U.S. point of view, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Maybe they just don?t want what we?re selling?

For example, in 2005, Israel simply gave Gaza to the Palestinians. According to the international community?s land-for-peace mantra, a peaceful society should have sprouted like a stalk from Jack?s magic beans. Instead, the Palestinian people voted for a band of Islamic fanatics ? even the European Union calls them terrorists, not that it matters much ? dedicated to the destruction of Israel. But the diplomacy-uber-alles crowd has long been immune to contrary evidence. Remember when Arafat fanned the second intifada in response to an unprecedented peace offer? Members of the Nobel committee openly talked of revoking the peace prize ? from Peres.

Now, President Bush, the leaders of the EU and the editors of the New York Times all say this is the moment for Israel to offer more concessions to Arafat?s successor, Mahmoud Abbas. So much for the fresh-from-Iraq cliche that it?s pointless to choose sides in a civil war.

Margaret Beckett, the British foreign secretary, lamented, ?Once again, extremists carrying guns have prevented progress against the wishes of the majority who seek a peaceful two-state solution.? But how do you square this with the fact that Hamas, the party promising the destruction of Israel, won the Palestinian elections in 2005? Meanwhile, the leaders of Fatah ? the ?moderates? ? had not long ago set the standard for Israel-hatred themselves.

The great irony is that Hamas now labels members of Fatah as Jewish ?collaborators,? a designation that apparently justifies even the execution of wounded Fatah prisoners in hospitals.

The German foreign ministry went so far as to suggest that Hamas?s triumph necessitates increasing aid to Gaza because of the hardships Hamas rule will cause. It seems that if you choose terrorism, either at the ballot box or in the streets, the Europeans, like the good hands at Allstate, will be there to pay for the mess.

But there?s another, perhaps more important, lesson to be drawn from the Hamas ascendancy. The Bush administration pushed for democracy in the Palestinian territories and got what it wished for ? in spades. The assumption behind the push for democracy in Gaza and in Iraq is that Arabs can be trusted to handle political freedom. Even the Democrats demanding an immediate pullout from Iraq hope that with democracy, the Iraqis will be able to sort out their problems themselves via some euphemistic ?political solution.? That is unless the antiwar Democrats are really advocating turning all of Mesopotamia into one giant Gaza Strip ? the far more likely result of U.S. withdrawal.

For many disciples of the ?international peace process,? it?s a matter of faith that the Palestinians just have to want peace, because how else can you have a peace process? For many supporters of the Bush Doctrine, Iraqis have to want democracy, because if they don?t, what?s the point of having a freedom agenda? But what if these are just beloved Western fictions? We see a well-lighted path to the good life: democracy, tolerance, rule of law, markets. But what if the Arab world just isn?t interested in our path? As a believer in the freedom agenda, that?s what scares me most.

? 2007 Tribune Media Services, Inc.
 
You understand nothing and your views are as uneducated and reprehensible to me as mine are to you - take this as my final post to you. Continued confirmation of what our original thoughts on each other are.

I am done with you - over and out - feel free to post as much as you want/like - I literally have no patience, energy or use/time for you.

:clap:

Except your valuable rebuttals will be missed ..... You add an open-minded, well-informed view of the situation. I actually read your posts. I have pretty much stopped reading any of 6thgentroll's "cut and paste" articles, except when specifics are being discussed.

Will he be left to troll and flame at will, without being set straight by those of you who can debate the incorrectness of his "logic"?! Not good! :(
Or can we have a total boycott and not give him a platform for trolling? It is disgusting imo.
 
Rita,
You seem very bright. Do you have anything specifically that you disagree with? Do you suggest that I quit reading WSJ, NR, The Economist, NYT, etc? Or does it just fit better when no one is arguing with your friends? If you have nothing to say, it's best to stick to the lounge, where your intellectual prowess is not out of its league. Thanks.
 
I like reading these forums. Don't plan on stopping. Ahhh, but I would enjoy it more if it weren't for the occasional pompous pest! :biggrin:

images-3-1.jpg


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I enjoy reading most of the posts in this forum, even the ones I disagree with, EXCEPT when the opposing views come from posters who appear to want only to start and continue arguments.

6thgen- really- I don't think I have ever read anything from you that didn't involve teethgrinding or headbanging by yourself, or you trying to incite it in others.

We have all posted views that started discussions and arguments, but most of us have built relationships to this board in positive ways, as opposed to coming out with both bats swinging and never putting them down. Opinions are wonderful and we have many here, but there needs to be a balance. Many posters that go "head to head" on these message board topics are complete personality opposites, debate their views, and still remain cordial and friendly. My guess is that you walk around this world with your dukes up and ready to have a go at everybody, which doens't make for lively or interesting debate.

So 6thgen, go ahead, have at me.:boxing: :cuss: :banging: :whack: :bicycle: :ninja:
 
Guys and Gals,

Please don't stop (just because of a few posters). Teeth grinding, if that what it takes, is what makes a serious topic such as this, intellectually stimulating to the reader. A kiss @ss approach on this thread would be just that. I find myself researching claims made by all sides only to get a deeper understanding of the topic... a luxury we have while on the internet. So thanks to both sides.

If those reading this can't take it, then perhaps, as 6thGen points out, they should go elsewhere (the lounge). I fully understand many of those here know Chickpea and therefore feel a need to jump to her defense. I believe she doesn't need your help at all.

So let the discussions continue. 6thGen may be a little brash, but the posts tend not to directly attack or get personally defensive. Calling him a "pompous pest" is.

The only ones "feeding the troll", as it were, are the ones who have nothing to contribute and then complain to everyone else that THEY don't like the tone of the thread. When Chickpea feels she's said enough, I'm sure she will wrap it up - but when SHE is ready....oh yea, she's said that a few posts back. :-)

Reminds me of when ecopal said that he couldn't understand why I was allowed to continue to post on SoWal regarding my position on retaining walls. To the credit of many of you, his error (and arrogance IMO) of his position was pointed out.
 
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