Proposed Countywide Noise Ordinance

[NotDeadYet]

Does anyone think it would do any good for someone like me to offer assistance to this situation. I have been a recording/technical/live sound engineer for over 30 years and am quite experienced in all forms of audio measurment. I am available to advise, measure, train or assist anyone who is willing to help both sides come to an agreement that we all can live with. I would be willing to do this all for free just to help settle the issue once and for all. Like SJ said in a earlier post, no law without a measurable, defined standard can be enforced or prosecuted.

Quite right, you need a measurable, defined standard. Which is why I think there is something very strange about this whole thing. Fishy, even. There is a perfectly good noise ordinance on the books right now that applies south of the Bay, although not in Grayton. The not-Grayton ordinance was the subject of many hearings and a lot of work from the community and a very experienced consultant who was very aware of the need for audio measurements and how to incorporate that into the ordinance. The goal was to get an ordinance with those defined standards that have stood up to legal challenges elsewhere. But the county has never enforced it. Essentially they made it impossible to enforce by turning it over to Code Enforcement, not following up with training, etc. I'm pretty sure if that ordinance had been in effect in Grayton, the music that night at Pandora's would have passed the decibel test and been allowed to continue. Now why all of a sudden does the county want to replace a perfectly good ordinance with one that won't stand up in court?? And make it countywide to boot? If the Sandestin people think they have a noise problem, why aren't they asking the county to enforce the existing ordinance?
It looks to me like another case of the county trying to reinvent the wheel yet again, and in the process, driving the car off the road and into a ditch. If the Grayton ordinance replaces the existing ordinance it will eventually be tested and thrown out, because of the lack of measurable, defined standards. The net result will be no ordinance. Now if that is what the community wants, well fine, so be it. But the goal years ago was an ordinance that worked for everybody, including the businesses and the musicians, and unfortunately it has not been shown to be a success or a failure, because it has not been used. So now we are on a circuitous path back to square one, and in the process the community has been divided, yet again.

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

Why can't the Deputies use a sound meter for sound; they use them for speed.

At Bud & Alley's in the past the use of a decibel meter was VERY helpful in determining whether we were within the allowable limits for sound. With all due respect to the Sheriff, he stated that it would be too difficult for his deputies to rely on a calibrated sound measuring device to decide what is too loud or not. His deputies use a calibrated measuring device every day to measure our speed. Why in the world is this any different to use a calibrated measuring device to measure sound levels? I believe it is absolutely arbitrary to rely anyone's opinion on what is too loud.

I found the use of the sound meter a quick and easy answer that cannot be disputed on either front. You point it at the offending source of the noise, you look down and the answer is as definite as a speed reading. You are either in the allowable sound limits or you are not. End of subject. The use of a calibrated sound meter is essential to keep it fair. The dispute ends much quicker and gives the Deputy a backup just like the speed gun. "Sorry sir, you were going 75 in a 55 mph zone." ... Sorry sir, your decibel level is at 90 and the allowable measurement is 70 decibels. You have to turn it down or else".

Quite right, you need a measurable, defined standard. Which is why I think there is something very strange about this whole thing. Fishy, even. There is a perfectly good noise ordinance on the books right now that applies south of the Bay, although not in Grayton. The not-Grayton ordinance was the subject of many hearings and a lot of work from the community and a very experienced consultant who was very aware of the need for audio measurements and how to incorporate that into the ordinance. The goal was to get an ordinance with those defined standards that have stood up to legal challenges elsewhere. But the county has never enforced it. Essentially they made it impossible to enforce by turning it over to Code Enforcement, not following up with training, etc. I'm pretty sure if that ordinance had been in effect in Grayton, the music that night at Pandora's would have passed the decibel test and been allowed to continue. Now why all of a sudden does the county want to replace a perfectly good ordinance with one that won't stand up in court?? And make it countywide to boot? If the Sandestin people think they have a noise problem, why aren't they asking the county to enforce the existing ordinance?
It looks to me like another case of the county trying to reinvent the wheel yet again, and in the process, driving the car off the road and into a ditch. If the Grayton ordinance replaces the existing ordinance it will eventually be tested and thrown out, because of the lack of measurable, defined standards. The net result will be no ordinance. Now if that is what the community wants, well fine, so be it. But the goal years ago was an ordinance that worked for everybody, including the businesses and the musicians, and unfortunately it has not been shown to be a success or a failure, because it has not been used. So now we are on a circuitous path back to square one, and in the process the community has been divided, yet again.

 

[GoodWitch58]

At Bud & Alley's in the past the use of a decibel meter was VERY helpful in determining whether we were within the allowable limits for sound. With all due respect to the Sheriff, he stated that it would be too difficult for his deputies to rely on a calibrated sound measuring device to decide what is too loud or not. His deputies use a calibrated measuring device every day to measure our speed. Why in the world is this any different to use a calibrated measuring device to measure sound levels? I believe it is absolutely arbitrary to rely anyone's opinion on what is too loud.

I found the use of the sound meter a quick and easy answer that cannot be disputed on either front. You point it at the offending source of the noise, you look down and the answer is as definite as a speed reading. You are either in the allowable sound limits or you are not. End of subject. The use of a calibrated sound meter is essential to keep it fair. The dispute ends much quicker and gives the Deputy a backup just like the speed gun. "Sorry sir, you were going 75 in a 55 mph zone." ... Sorry sir, your decibel level is at 90 and the allowable measurement is 70 decibels. You have to turn it down or else".

Both Dave and NotDeadYet's posts make perfectly good sense.

So, can anyone tell us what is really going on here with this issue?

Sheriff Adkinson -- where are you?

Commissioners, what is wrong with the ordinance that is presently on the books?

Walton Sun: what is the rest of the story?

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

I believe the people who are pushing for the Grayton Ordinance want to keep the Sound Meters out of the ordinance because of this:

If there is no sound meter than there is no measuring device to challenge if someone wanted to bother. If a deputy is giving his opinion there is no evidence of the crime and therefore no way for anyone to duplicate it in court if they wanted to challenge it.

The very ambiguity of it makes it easier for it to enforce. If you are speeding you may challenge the reading in court; usually the deputy shows up at court and the conviction stands. If there is no measurement device fewer people are going to go to court if it the measurement is the Deputies word against the person charged with violating the sound ordinance. The lack of a sound meter is easier but not necessarily fair.

Do we want a sound ordinance that is easy or fair?

Both Dave and NotDeadYet's posts make perfectly good sense.

So, can anyone tell us what is really going on here with this issue?

Sheriff Adkinson -- where are you?

Commissioners, what is wrong with the ordinance that is presently on the books?

Walton Sun: what is the rest of the story?

 

[Groovegirls]

Both Dave and NotDeadYet's posts make perfectly good sense.

So, can anyone tell us what is really going on here with this issue?

Sheriff Adkinson -- where are you?

Commissioners, what is wrong with the ordinance that is presently on the books?

Walton Sun: what is the rest of the story?

You all may remember that Salty Dog was using a Decibel Meter. Here is what concerns me the most. Disturbing the Peace works at any time of day with or without an ordinance or decibel meter. I believe that was the charge at Salty Dog too. So even with complete compliance of a noise ordinance a band could be shut down and someone could go to jail. I have been very dissapointed in all the coverage of this issue. The media hasn't exactly gotten to the heart of the matter. It seems that our issues have been downplayed because of the impression that the only noise related problems are related to wedding houses. I think we will need several more meetings on this subject especially if we have to rush through because we took too much time debating issues like perverts in public bathrooms. And the ordinance, or lack thereof, has been working for years. For the most part bars and bands haven't changed what they are doing or how loudly they do it. So we have to ask what did change and what can we do about it?

 

[Andy A]

You all may remember that Salty Dog was using a Decibel Meter. Here is what concerns me the most. Disturbing the Peace works at any time of day with or without an ordinance or decibel meter. I believe that was the charge at Salty Dog too. So even with complete compliance of a noise ordinance a band could be shut down and someone could go to jail. I have been very dissapointed in all the coverage of this issue. The media hasn't exactly gotten to the heart of the matter. It seems that our issues have been downplayed because of the impression that the only noise related problems are related to wedding houses. I think we will need several more meetings on this subject especially if we have to rush through because we took too much time debating issues like perverts in public bathrooms. And the ordinance, or lack thereof, has been working for years. For the most part bars and bands haven't changed what they are doing or how loudly they do it. So we have to ask what did change and what can we do about it?

I may be wrong, but it appears you do not attend many BCC meetings, do you?

 

[jodiFL]

At Bud & Alley's in the past the use of a decibel meter was VERY helpful in determining whether we were within the allowable limits for sound. With all due respect to the Sheriff, he stated that it would be too difficult for his deputies to rely on a calibrated sound measuring device to decide what is too loud or not. His deputies use a calibrated measuring device every day to measure our speed. Why in the world is this any different to use a calibrated measuring device to measure sound levels? I believe it is absolutely arbitrary to rely anyone's opinion on what is too loud.

I found the use of the sound meter a quick and easy answer that cannot be disputed on either front. You point it at the offending source of the noise, you look down and the answer is as definite as a speed reading. You are either in the allowable sound limits or you are not. End of subject. The use of a calibrated sound meter is essential to keep it fair. The dispute ends much quicker and gives the Deputy a backup just like the speed gun. "Sorry sir, you were going 75 in a 55 mph zone." ... Sorry sir, your decibel level is at 90 and the allowable measurement is 70 decibels. You have to turn it down or else".

Thank you. And if they need professional sound measuring devices there is a company called TermLab that NASA uses. I am friends with a local person that is qualified to use these things. The can be integrated into the computer in the sheriffs car and keep track of everything from the offending place of business to the offending band or whatever. The system is so easy to use that the officer wouldnt even have to get out of his car. The actual mic has suction cups and he could just stick it on the outside window of his car and measure it at the complainants house as well as the 50 or 100 foot requirement from the property line. The WCSO can measure the sound of car stereos so there is no reason not to be able to do the same with a place of business. The main thing I have a problem with is the fact that once this gets passed they might possibly have a way to require businesses to close at 10-11 pm every night. That sounds alot like a police state imposed curfew to me. And if they are already only using the "breach of peace" to enforce any kind of noise violation, why do they need YET ANOTHER ordinance on the books? If they are going to hide behind breach of peace because the complaints dont come in at the hours in the ordinance why even bother with another law?

 

[30A Television]

More news coverage is exactly what is needed. Once the Sandestin's and Cash Moore's (Freeport) etc. get wind of what is trying to be done here I think the entire thing will go away. There is no way they will allow something as vague as this ordinance once they realize that it could possibly interfere with their businesses that are allowed to serve and entertain until 2am.

Do please contact us on this. We havent heard boo from anyone

 

[John R]

The use of the already purchased meters has been my issue from the beginning of this mess.

my main issue with the use of the grayton ordinance is that every incident that ends up in court could be beaten with the simple questions of "when was the last time you had a hearing test?" and "do you suffer from any hearing loss or tinnitus?" any defendant's lawyer will see this as plain as day.

also, 90% of the discussion regarding this topic on this board has been related to 30a and the immediate area. This ordinance, whichever way it shakes out, will affect the entire county. There is a lot of noise out there that could be complained about. the county should put a good amount of deliberation into this, and see how other resort municipalities throughout florida have already handled it.

 

[jodiFL]

also, 90% of the discussion regarding this topic on this board has been related to 30a and the immediate area. This ordinance, whichever way it shakes out, will affect the entire county.

Exactly...I dont think that enough business owners elsewhere realize that this will affect everyone, not just 30A. Thats why I brought up Sandestin, and Freeport and Defuniak. I have a feeling they arent paying attention because they think "oh, its just those people on 30A" but the owners of every establishment that has entertainment needs to be at the meeting in June. I think that all the media outlets need to get this out there and contact the people in Miramar, Sandestin, Freeport, and Defuniak to bring them up to speed on this.