Learning and Teaching Do Matter

[Winnie]

I just have to chime in about the use of teacher evaluations. I think it's a great way to assess performance, especially in schools and communities with stable populations.

On the other hand, in schools and communities with high transient populations (such as ours--last time I checked, student turnover from one year to the next in Walton County was abut 50%), and the lack of nationwide core curriculum for schools that would help all students in a certain grade level to have learned the same materials at the same time, it's not fair to students or teachers to rely solely on standardized test scores as indicative of teacher quality. (And there's the whole problem of teaching to the test rather than educating the students, that I won't even go into just now.) The only way I've been able to think of to balance that unfairness would be some sort of weighting system to account for high transience and other variables beyond a classroom teacher's control.

As for fat, there is PLENTY of fat in the education system as best I can tell. In many localities, the school district is more of a jobs program than a venue for educating children. It's very political, very old school (pun intended), very head-bangingly frustrating if you have a child in school in such a place and come up against the circle of public-school-powers-that-be wagons.

I do not know how to fix it because if you want to get elected to positions of hiring and firing authority, you have to make all those cushy job folks happy, and really the whole machine, or they will make sure you don't get elected. Especially true in communities where the gov't and school district are among the biggest employers.

I suppose there would have to be a test for grade placement when students transfer from state to state. Luckily, there are many talented people in education who can find solutions to the transient problem.

To solve for "teaching to the test" a test bank with randomly selected questions in each category may work. "Teaching to the category" would be a good thing. I've had professors that did something similar to that for major exams to prevent cheating. It's a good idea. It insures understanding of the material and not just of the test questions. For chemistry, our final was always the standardized national test. Quite challenging, and impossible for instructors to predict. A very good indicator of how well a student understands chemistry.

 

[Winnie]

I'd be willing to accept a hike in local taxes in return for educators coming together to define a performance system designed to act as an incentive program that 1) attracts better educators, 2) keeps good educators on the payroll and continually pushes them to do better and be more involved, and 3) unconditionally weeds out bad educators over a period of time.

As far as local salaries go, $34,700 starting really isn't all that bad. But I think making that a base and providing the opportunity for involved and committed teachers who do a good job to earn much more makes good sense and is a good investment. I don't even have any kids but I understand the long term value good education provides for everyone.

Excellent suggestions!!
Much of Florida already has the incentive of a great location. I suspect this is why Northwest Florida College faculty is comprised almost exclusively of PhD's.

 

[30ashopper]

I was thinking of good incentive programs. The way I would design it would be to create some form of quality of service ranking system for individual educators. Those rankings would be added together and averaged by group, say broken down by individual schools. The average grade of all educators would then dictate whether or not that school received a performance increase for the year or performance cut. Educators for the school would also be given the responsibility of deciding which new teachers to hire, and which teachers to fire.

There are some advantages to a system like this. Performance pay is the equal rather than being doled out on an individual basis, eliminating the need for upper level administrators involvement and the politics of bonus pay. Also educator management and policing responsibilities are handed to the educators themselves. The unions would also not be able to play a role since if they attempted to protect a bad educator, they would incur the wrath of the good educators. It would be in everyone?s best interests to do the best job possible, hire the best educators and eliminate the bad eggs.

 

[lms47]

To all the folks who believe a teacher has short hours, all I have to say is teach for a year! My days consisted of at least 13 hours, if I didn't have to work a ballgame or other extracurricular activity, so figure that by the hour, please. Use your "summer" time-off to prepare for the upcoming year, attend workshops and assist in scheduling of the new year, and reading journals to remain current in your field. Good to have all this "time off" because you don't have the funds for a vacation.

Sorry to sound so harsh; but, I was raised by two of the greatest human beings who taught a total of 81 years between them and I KNOW what is was like. Despite this fact, it did not deter me from joining the same profession as I suppose money was not that important to me as I had seen and experienced the rewards of becoming an effective educator!

Thanks for allowing me to rant, just hit a sore spot with me. Love sowal peeps and enlightening conversations!

 

[Rita]

................... They have every major holiday and Summer off. They work less days and their work day is shorter than many other professions. I agree that working with children is a challenging proposition. It's really more of a calling than a career. ......................

.
"Contact hours" do not come close to telling the story. The many teachers I am familiar with spend many hours beyond the time actually in the classroom working at things school related. I have often though that I had it made not having to take my work home with me like my teacher friends do.

As for teaching being more of a calling than a career - could that be because we as a country do not put enough value on teaching as a profession? Why do you think it is more of a calling?

I would love it if teaching was a higher paid career choice. There is quality talent out there who might teach if they could afford to do so. And yes, that is something I'd be willing to dig into my pocket deeper in the way of taxes. As it is, we donate time & money to our child's school. We can do that, but some school districts are "poorer" and do not have the money & time donations that our district does. (and our district is by no means flush - but we do have good volunteerism)


.

 

[Winnie]

To all the folks who believe a teacher has short hours, all I have to say is teach for a year! My days consisted of at least 13 hours, if I didn't have to work a ballgame or other extracurricular activity, so figure that by the hour, please. Use your "summer" time-off to prepare for the upcoming year, attend workshops and assist in scheduling of the new year, and reading journals to remain current in your field. Good to have all this "time off" because you don't have the funds for a vacation.

Sorry to sound so harsh; but, I was raised by two of the greatest human beings who taught a total of 81 years between them and I KNOW what is was like. Despite this fact, it did not deter me from joining the same profession as I suppose money was not that important to me as I had seen and experienced the rewards of becoming an effective educator!

Thanks for allowing me to rant, just hit a sore spot with me. Love sowal peeps and enlightening conversations!

I admire and appreciate your hard work and dedication.
You should have been compensated for the extra effort. I hope we will be able to reward dedicated teachers like you in the future.

That said, you are obviously an exception, given the state of our education system. If even half of teachers put in 13 hour days and volunteered their Summers, student test scores would not be declining from decade to decade.

.
"Contact hours" do not come close to telling the story. The many teachers I am familiar with spend many hours beyond the time actually in the classroom working at things school related. I have often though that I had it made not having to take my work home with me like my teacher friends do.

As for teaching being more of a calling than a career - could that be because we as a country do not put enough value on teaching as a profession? Why do you think it is more of a calling?

I would love it if teaching was a higher paid career choice. There is quality talent out there who might teach if they could afford to do so. And yes, that is something I'd be willing to dig into my pocket deeper in the way of taxes. As it is, we donate time & money to our child's school. We can do that, but some school districts are "poorer" and do not have the money & time donations that our district does. (and our district is by no means flush - but we do have good volunteerism)
.

Most professions require “off the clock” time and effort. Continuing education, professional networking, community service, promotion, etc. In business, these are the things that garner success. I’ve always thought physicians had it particularly bad because they can be called in at any moment unless they’ve made alternate arrangements. That can really put a crimp in spontaneity.

I think of teaching as more of a calling because of the emotional input required. Accounting, not so much. Teaching is a skill but it is also a gift. Not everyone is suited for it.

I don’t know what leads you to the conclusion that we don’t value teaching as a profession. I do and I think most people do. I just don’t think it is above reproach as a profession.

Schools are not doing a good job of educating our youth. That is indisputable. We spend more than we ever have and have less educated graduates than ever. That is just wrong. Maybe teachers need more pay and less administration. Maybe we need only “basic” facilities but more luxurious supplies. I don’t know where exactly we are failing, but we are failing. It isn’t a funding problem. How can it be when we keep adding funds and getting worse results?

I don’t buy the idea that more pay would attract more qualified teachers. Teachers like lms47 devoted entire working careers to the profession from the heart. She put forth her best efforts. Would more pay have incented her to work 16 hour days?

Higher paying teaching opportunities are already available at private schools and colleges. I don’t think the public system will ever be able to compete with those pay scales.

Just like health care, our education system needs reform. On this, I agree with the steps President Obama is taking already. I look forward to his next ideas on the matter.

 

[Bob]

You still haven't answered the question, how would you adjust salaries here in walton county and would you be willing to pay for it through higher local taxes? A state income tax is not going to happen.

yes,yes,yes. unless you want to run a deficit like dc/ca

 

[Bob]

I admire and appreciate your hard work and dedication.
You should have been compensated for the extra effort. I hope we will be able to reward dedicated teachers like you in the future.

That said, you are obviously an exception, given the state of our education system. If even half of teachers put in 13 hour days and volunteered their Summers, student test scores would not be declining from decade to decade.



Most professions require ?off the clock? time and effort. Continuing education, professional networking, community service, promotion, etc. In business, these are the things that garner success. I?ve always thought physicians had it particularly bad because they can be called in at any moment unless they?ve made alternate arrangements. That can really put a crimp in spontaneity.

I think of teaching as more of a calling because of the emotional input required. Accounting, not so much. Teaching is a skill but it is also a gift. Not everyone is suited for it.

I don?t know what leads you to the conclusion that we don?t value teaching as a profession. I do and I think most people do. I just don?t think it is above reproach as a profession.

Schools are not doing a good job of educating our youth. That is indisputable. We spend more than we ever have and have less educated graduates than ever. That is just wrong. Maybe teachers need more pay and less administration. Maybe we need only ?basic? facilities but more luxurious supplies. I don?t know where exactly we are failing, but we are failing. It isn?t a funding problem. How can it be when we keep adding funds and getting worse results?

I don?t buy the idea that more pay would attract more qualified teachers. Teachers like lms47 devoted entire working careers to the profession from the heart. She put forth her best efforts. Would more pay have incented her to work 16 hour days?

Higher paying teaching opportunities are already available at private schools and colleges. I don?t think the public system will ever be able to compete with those pay scales.

Just like health care, our education system needs reform. On this, I agree with the steps President Obama is taking already. I look forward to his next ideas on the matter.

have you ever taught, or are you winging it here?

 

[Susan Horn]

I don't think freshly graduated people would be financially able to spend their first year out of school volunteering unless it was in Peace Corps or somewhere else that provides a stipend and housing.

Details that would have to be worked out, but not IMHO insurmountable problems. This is America!

 

[lms47]

I admire and appreciate your hard work and dedication.
You should have been compensated for the extra effort. I hope we will be able to reward dedicated teachers like you in the future.

That said, you are obviously an exception, given the state of our education system. If even half of teachers put in 13 hour days and volunteered their Summers, student test scores would not be declining from decade to decade.



Most professions require ?off the clock? time and effort. Continuing education, professional networking, community service, promotion, etc. In business, these are the things that garner success. I?ve always thought physicians had it particularly bad because they can be called in at any moment unless they?ve made alternate arrangements. That can really put a crimp in spontaneity.

I think of teaching as more of a calling because of the emotional input required. Accounting, not so much. Teaching is a skill but it is also a gift. Not everyone is suited for it.

I don?t know what leads you to the conclusion that we don?t value teaching as a profession. I do and I think most people do. I just don?t think it is above reproach as a profession.

Schools are not doing a good job of educating our youth. That is indisputable. We spend more than we ever have and have less educated graduates than ever. That is just wrong. Maybe teachers need more pay and less administration. Maybe we need only ?basic? facilities but more luxurious supplies. I don?t know where exactly we are failing, but we are failing. It isn?t a funding problem. How can it be when we keep adding funds and getting worse results?

I don?t buy the idea that more pay would attract more qualified teachers. Teachers like lms47 devoted entire working careers to the profession from the heart. She put forth her best efforts. Would more pay have incented her to work 16 hour days?

Higher paying teaching opportunities are already available at private schools and colleges. I don?t think the public system will ever be able to compete with those pay scales.

Just like health care, our education system needs reform. On this, I agree with the steps President Obama is taking already. I look forward to his next ideas on the matter.

Thanks, Winnie! Appreciate your insight and higher pay wouldn't have made me work any harder BUT, it would have been NICE!