Don't ask, Don't tell

[Bob]

Sure, thanks to our police the world mentality, we have bases all over the earth with housing and barracks in training camps. Are we going to stick the gay men in with straight men so they can sleep and shower together, ditto for gay women? (Maybe the gay men should sleep in the womens quarters and vice versa? That might save some money and time.) The logistics equal what we went through when women joined the military. It took a while to get the issues worked out and they weren't integrated fully for decades. Which isn't to say it can't be done, we just need a Gays Armed Service Integration Act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it), and the military won't have a choice.

Then benefits are a whole different issue. Currently under federal law partners would not receive benefits. Changing that requires yet another act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it.)

I think you would have to start with the benefits, and work your way backwards (no pun intended ). Start by getting people to accept gay couples. We have a long way to go, even California has a gay marriage ban in their Constitution now. Seems like we are going backwards sometimes.

gay and straight have worked together in the military from the beginning. it has no bearing on the job. providing partners with benefits is only logical. getting people to accept gay couples is not a prerequisite to equal protection. don't ask, don't tell is delaying tactic posing as pragmatism.

 

[poppy]

Allow me to put my spin on this and hopefully we'll get the other side as well.
I'm straight. I wouldn't have problems with daily activities of the military alongside a gay soldier.
It would get weird if someone took an interest in me. They would find out immediately that I'm not an available person, no big deal.
What would become weird would be going to the showers at the locker room with this particular person after this. I would think they were looking at me in a different manner than I believe should be allowed.

From a government perspective, what do you do about this? Give gays their own shower. No. I would imagine there are gay people who don't want other gay people looking at them in a manner they don't approve of. Is this really any different than having male and female showers?

What should be done if someone began to strongly dislike you, should that person be given his own shower because you're afraid he is going to kick your ass? People living in close quarters are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner and if not it should be dealt with swiftly and with authority. For years the military had no problem funding separate barracks, latrines, officers etc. for blacks. Looking back it all seems so silly and a waste of resources.

 

[GoodWitch58]

What should be done if someone began to strongly dislike you, should that person be given his own shower because you're afraid he is going to kick your ass? People living in close quarters are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner and if not it should be dealt with swiftly and with authority. For years the military had no problem funding separate barracks, latrines, officers etc. for blacks. Looking back it all seems so silly and a waste of resources.

and apparently the majority of the military have no problem with lifting this provision. As a matter of fact, many of the members of the military have private showers and bathrooms...with a roommate. Of course this may not apply in basic training situations or in combat fields. However, from the conversations I've had with members of the military who actually have experienced the situation, there is no problem in general--in basic training they are too focused on surviving the training and in combat they are focused on surviving generally. Apparently not many of the troops ask if someone is gay or straight when that person is responsible for having their back in a life or death situation.

Like the black white issue before, it appears to be a non-issue for the most part to the people who are actually affected. It just needs some politicians with some guts to deal with it in the appropriate manner. I think the Admiral stated the case very well.

Along the same lines, I think Leonard Pitts writes an excellent column in today's paper about the service of the Black military members. Much of the same can be said for the gay and lesbian service members IMO: http://www.tallahassee.com/article/...radox-Blacks-fighting-for-ideals-that-exclude

 

[Matt J]

I find it interesting that, although, gays were specifically barred from military service someone thought that showers in bathrooms should always have vanity screens between them. Even on submarines where space is at a premium. Apparently straight guys can't stop leering at each other long enough to take a shower. :scratch:

 

[Gidget]

Regarding the whole shower thing. I would imagine that although someone who is gay might admire the body of a heterosexual (and vice-versa) he/she wouldn't take it any further than that. What I'm saying is don't gays usually go for other gays

As far as "Don't Ask Don't Tell" well, there is no need to ask. I mean the recruiter isn't going to ask on a form a) gay b) straight c) bi ;-) But if someone wants to let their sexuality be known then that shouldn't be an issue or if it comes out because say they were seen in public with their partner or they were at a gay rally etc....that shouldn't be an issue either. So my points are : Gay men and women aren't going to hit on straight men and women (I think some people have this fear that if they end up in a fox hole with a gay that means they're screwed - pun intended) Also, it is no one's business if someone is gay or not and if it is found that a soldier is gay then so be it. A soldier is a soldier.

My word I think this is a no-brainer.

G

 

[30ashopper]

Regarding the whole shower thing. I would imagine that although someone who is gay might admire the body of a heterosexual (and vice-versa) he/she wouldn't take it any further than that. What I'm saying is don't gays usually go for other gays

As far as "Don't Ask Don't Tell" well, there is no need to ask. I mean the recruiter isn't going to ask on a form a) gay b) straight c) bi ;-) But if someone wants to let their sexuality be known then that shouldn't be an issue or if it comes out because say they were seen in public with their partner or they were at a gay rally etc....that shouldn't be an issue either. So my points are : Gay men and women aren't going to hit on straight men and women (I think some people have this fear that if they end up in a fox hole with a gay that means they're screwed - pun intended) Also, it is no one's business if someone is gay or not and if it is found that a soldier is gay then so be it. A soldier is a soldier.

My word I think this is a no-brainer.

G

You apparently have never been to a bar in San Francisco. Gay men hit on anything that moves, just like their straight counterparts.

 

[Gidget]

You apparently have never been to a bar in San Francisco. Gay men hit on anything that moves, just like their straight counterparts.

They are not soldiers. I've seen some real creeps in bars. I just don't think that would be an issue. A soldier goes by a code whether he/she is gay or not. Of course there are exceptions, but they will be weeded out just like any hetero who goes around hitting on women alllll the time.

G

 

[scooterbug44]

So basically the entire issue of not discriminating against the gay service members who are willing to die for their country comes down to sophomoric concerns about getting hit on or checked out in the shower? :roll:

We trust these people w/ multi-million (or billion) dollar hardware, weapons, and the security of our nation, but not to have some basic manners and civility?

 

[30ashopper]

They are not soldiers. I've seen some real creeps in bars. I just don't think that would be an issue. A soldier goes by a code whether he/she is gay or not. Of course there are exceptions, but they will be weeded out just like any hetero who goes around hitting on women alllll the time.

G

Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?

 

[poppy]

Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?

This shower fear is absurd, no one is going to order you to shower with a certain individual. I was in the military and not one installation I was ever on had enough showers for everyone to bath at the same time. The ship I was stationed on for 18 months had a single stall with two shower heads for 30+ enlisted men. You can choose a shower partner who gives the best back scrub instead of the best BJ.;-)