Should we be like Saudis re Religious Freedom?

[ugabuga]

Did Jon Stewart really say this? That statement in and of itself doesn't make much sense to me. I don't see our liberties as a higher standard or superior to Saudi Arabia, but I do see a separate set of standards.......I prefer our standards.

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

 

[Lynnie]

Christopher Hitchens has the most well-reasoned opinion on this I've heard yet. Nothing like Gingrich and Palin pretending to express my sentiments. Link to article here, and excerpts below:

The dispute over the "Ground Zero mosque" is an object lesson in how not to resist intolerance. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine


...Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, "their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." This cracked tune has been taken up by Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who additionally claim to be ventriloquizing the emotions of millions of Americans who did not suffer bereavement....

...Where to start with this part-pathetic and part-sinister appeal to demagogy? To begin with, it borrows straight from the playbook of Muslim cultural blackmail. Claim that something is "offensive," and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offense is "irrational and bigoted." But, hey?why think when you can just feel? The supposed "feelings" of the 9/11 relatives have already deprived us all of the opportunity to see the real-time footage of the attacks?a huge concession to the general dulling of what ought to be a sober and continuous memory of genuine outrage. Now extra privileges have to be awarded to an instant opinion-poll majority. Not only that, the president is urged to use his high office to decide questions of religious architecture! ...

Nothing can compare to the Holocaust and those who compare and contrast this are incredibly insensitive and without thought to the egregious inhumanity that transpired at the hand of a First World nutjob......for years!! People do have varying degrees of feelings surrounding 9/11; I think this should be respected, but freedom of speech should not suffer because of peoples' feelings. Thankfully, I had no direct loss with 9/11, but most certainly experienced loss relating to that date and those attacks.

I think it was ruled that the building is not historic, which means with proper permitting, this group wanting to erect the mosque, can.

 

[Lynnie]

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

No, I do not think we are superior and I respect others' cultures. I have often said that one country to keep an eye on in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia due to their borders being 100% closed. The US and Saudi arabia are completely different fundamentally and I see not one as superior to another.

Resounding Yes, I prefer our standards all encompassing from Freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State to their Royal Dictator style. But, that's just me.

 

[Lake View Too]

The main point of Stewart's really good bit on this contoversy is that people like Gingrich and Palin want us to revert to a state of intolerance. They want us to demonize an entire religion. Stewart pointed out there has been a mosque in that district (two blocks from "ground zero") for over forty years. This area is know as Little Syria. We can't let one horrible act, by a small bunch of losers, push us into hatred and intolerance of an entire worldwide religion. This is precisely what Al Queda wants.

 

[LuciferSam]

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

I'll be more than happy to say i think overall our society is morally superior to that of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Lake View Too]

I'll be more than happy to say i think overall our society is morally superior to that of Saudi Arabia.

I'll drink to that!

But, we shouldn't forget that our govt. does things that might appear morally "insensitive", like invading countries, ignoring genocide, and enabling ruthless corporations to rape and pillage the resources of other countries.

I guess, on balance, we're pretty schizophrenic, huh?

 

[ugabuga]

No, I do not think we are superior and I respect others' cultures. I have often said that one country to keep an eye on in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia due to their borders being 100% closed. The US and Saudi arabia are completely different fundamentally and I see not one as superior to another.

Resounding Yes, I prefer our standards all encompassing from Freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State to their Royal Dictator style. But, that's just me.

Maybe we're just having a semantic disconnect--or maybe we fundamentally disagree.

You say you "respect" the Saudi culture of religious intolerance--although you'd "prefer" religious tolerance.

If by "respect" you mean "admire" or "venerate" or some such, we fundamentally disagree--because my word would be more the opposite, e.g., "scorn," or "disrespect" (if that were really a verb.)

I hope you don't mean you admire/venerate the Saudi's religious intolerance.

 

[scooterbug44]

"Saudi Arabia" and "religious tolerance" do not belong in the same sentence - unless the other words are "has zero".

 

[Lynnie]

Maybe we're just having a semantic disconnect--or maybe we fundamentally disagree.

You say you "respect" the Saudi culture of religious intolerance--although you'd "prefer" religious tolerance.

If by "respect" you mean "admire" or "venerate" or some such, we fundamentally disagree--because my word would be more the opposite, e.g., "scorn," or "disrespect" (if that were really a verb.)

I hope you don't mean you admire/venerate the Saudi's religious intolerance.

Yes, maybe just differing styles of communicating. I prefer my Freedom, ugabuga, and the United States Constitution. That said, yes, I am very respectful of other cultures inclusive of their religion. As a Nation, Saudi Arabia is Muslim. I do not agree with the repression and the fact that their borders are 100% closed. Their borders are not just closed to non Muslims, but closed to the Holy Bible, Old Testament and New Testament....this is repression (intolerance). This is the only one of the 17 Muslim Countries (Middle Eastern) who practice such stringent border control. However, this is their culture. Period. Even Israel has a greater Muslim population than Christian.

As far as your hope that I don't mean I admire/venerate their certain intolerances, if I did mean those words you choose, are you being judgmental of my choice? I won't go any further with this discussion than the fact that I do respect their very deep rooted religious culture.

As much as I have traveled, don't think for a minute that it is very concerning when a country tells me I cannot enter unescorted. My escort must be a male......and, what I can and cannot wear. I still want to go there.....I have an innate desire to travel and learn others' cultures. I studied this country a great deal after 9/11, particularly the fact that this royal government renounced Osama bin Laden's citizenship. They are fundamentally Muslim and from a business perspective try with tremendous effort to maintain global relations. One word: OIL. If they didn't have oil, would their culture have morphed and become more open over the last several decades? I don't know~~~~~~

 

[Bob]

The Masjid al-Haram "Grand Mosque" in Mecca, Saudia Arabia is Islams most holly site.
The current structure covers an area of 990.40 acres including the outdoor and indoor praying spaces and can accommodate up to four million Muslim worshippers.

If the Saudis will let a Catholic church be built within a half mile of the center then I say break ground in NYC. If not then built it somewhere else.

did you come up with that yourself?