Catholic Bishops Call for Health Care Reform

[scooterbug44]

I don't think we have to worry about rationing - that was just dumb. And you know I asked every foreigner I could find about their country's health care to see how realistic they thought that was! ;-)

But the more I study this issue the more I think that part of the waste/expense is coming from people who do not properly value their care because they do not see it as a direct expense or result of their decisions. Why should they care how expensive it is to go to an ER vs. a clinic when they are not picking up the tab for it?

I think that if we can get some basic reforms - cost of malpractice insurance, different rates for different people, fraud, amount of bureaucracy, cost of medicine etc. down it would go a LONG way towards making health care affordable & accessible.

 

[30ashopper]

contrary to what the Rush Limbaugh's have to say, I am fairly certain that we do not have to give up freedoms in order to have health care.

I don't listen to Rush, I think for myself, thank you very much. ;-)

You always sacrifice freedoms when you force something upon people through rule of law, especially if that 'something' is commercial.

 

[scooterbug44]

Thought a loud guy in a restaurant recently had an interesting idea (if you don't want me to listen, use your inside voice) - he said that if they get this thing passed and then try to change it or scale it back, there will be a huge uproar ala trying to mess w/ Social Security.

As I was very much in a "anti-bureaucracy, anti-entitled" mood, I thought it was a definite possibility. Especially after hearing some propaganda commercial the other day about how our government had made a promise to veterans etc. about their health care and were now attempting to make changes/cutbacks.

I am getting very tired of many programs that I think are a good short term idea (welfare, food stamps, unemployment) becoming lifestyles. Think we need to do more to break those cycles and make the assistance temporary again.

 

[30ashopper]

Thought a loud guy in a restaurant recently had an interesting idea (if you don't want me to listen, use your inside voice) - he said that if they get this thing passed and then try to change it or scale it back, there will be a huge uproar ala trying to mess w/ Social Security.

As I was very much in a "anti-bureaucracy, anti-entitled" mood, I thought it was a definite possibility. Especially after hearing some propaganda commercial the other day about how our government had made a promise to veterans etc. about their health care and were now attempting to make changes/cutbacks.

I am getting very tired of many programs that I think are a good short term idea (welfare, food stamps, unemployment) becoming lifestyles. Think we need to do more to break those cycles and make the assistance temporary again.

Welfare refrom from 96 was highly successful. Welfare rolls were reduced by 60%, the system was changed from open ended to finite, and employment in the country rose as a direct result.

In 2009, a number of the original reforms Clinton championed were undone by the democrats in Congress through the 2009 stimulus bill.

Stimulus Bill Abolishes Welfare Reform and Adds New Welfare Spending

 

[NotDeadYet]

Ok, so you are refering to a "group right", not an individual right. Group rights commonly infringe individual rights, because they require enslavement in some form or another.

I don't know what you mean by "enslavement" but anyone who thinks they can enjoy the fruits of modern conveniences without contributing to the enslavement of someone else is delusional. Did you buy any gasoline today? Any fresh produce? Anything made in whole or in part with material that originated in a communist country? Or a country that has real enslavement, the likes of which people living in the United States are by and large clueless about? Maybe a pharmaceutical, for example? Shoes, clothes?

Citizens of European countries with universal health care overwhelmingly feel free in their day to day lives, and one reason is the security of knowing they are not just one slip and fall away from bankruptcy. There is no absolute freedom unless you withdraw completely from society, grow your own food, live off the grid and do without modern medicine. It's all a trade off in one way or another.

 

[30ashopper]

I don't know what you mean by "enslavement" but anyone who thinks they can enjoy the fruits of modern conveniences without contributing to the enslavement of someone else is delusional. Did you buy any gasoline today? Any fresh produce? Anything made in whole or in part with material that originated in a communist country? Or a country that has real enslavement, the likes of which people living in the United States are by and large clueless about? Maybe a pharmaceutical, for example? Shoes, clothes?

Citizens of European countries with universal health care overwhelmingly feel free in their day to day lives, and one reason is the security of knowing they are not just one slip and fall away from bankruptcy. There is no absolute freedom unless you withdraw completely from society, grow your own food, live off the grid and do without modern medicine. It's all a trade off in one way or another.

The discussion was about an individual right to access something produced by another. Does government mandate that I have access to gasoline, fresh produce, and products from communist countries - not currently. (Give the democrats time though, I'm sure they're working on it. ) This type of "group right" infringes on individual rights, an act social democrats take no issue with. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[LuciferSam]

I don't know what you mean by "enslavement" but anyone who thinks they can enjoy the fruits of modern conveniences without contributing to the enslavement of someone else is delusional. Did you buy any gasoline today? Any fresh produce? Anything made in whole or in part with material that originated in a communist country? Or a country that has real enslavement, the likes of which people living in the United States are by and large clueless about? Maybe a pharmaceutical, for example? Shoes, clothes?

Citizens of European countries with universal health care overwhelmingly feel free in their day to day lives, and one reason is the security of knowing they are not just one slip and fall away from bankruptcy. There is no absolute freedom unless you withdraw completely from society, grow your own food, live off the grid and do without modern medicine. It's all a trade off in one way or another.

I think he's talking about when the government (the United Staes government) strips us of our individual rights for the alleged "greater good" whatever that might mean. I wouldn't necessarily feel free simply because the government provided me with financial security.

 

[Bob]

I don't listen to Rush, I think for myself, thank you very much. ;-)

You always sacrifice freedoms when you force something upon people through rule of law, especially if that 'something' is commercial.

the freedom to behave as third world citizens, with every person for themselves. the freedom of unrestricted greed. the freedom to step over someone on the way to the coliseum. republitarians have no problem with folks serving the better good as long as it involves killing others in the name of god and country. health care? you're on your own!

 

[30ashopper]

I think he's talking about when the government (the United Staes government) strips us of our individual rights for the alleged "greater good" whatever that might mean. I wouldn't necessarily feel free simply because the government provided me with financial security.

Yep.

 

[Teresa]

The discussion was about an individual right to access something produced by another. Does government mandate that I have access to gasoline, fresh produce, and products from communist countries - not currently. (Give the democrats time though, I'm sure they're working on it. ) This type of "group right" infringes on individual rights, an act social democrats take no issue with. That was the point I was trying to make.

still, NotDead's point is totally on the mark regarding the trade offs or in some cases, sacrifices, or impact on ourselves or others - in order to advance our civilization, take care of the poorest, provide opportunity for education and work, and keep our country great. we don't stay great by staying the same. it takes courage to keep doing the right thing. No one here is saying give people something for nothing. Only that the greatest nation on earth should be able to provide affordable health care to its citizens. we all have to work hard to make that happen. it isn't something for nothing.