Catholic Bishops Call for Health Care Reform

[30ashopper]

still, NotDead's point is totally on the mark regarding the trade offs or in some cases, sacrifices, or impact on ourselves or others - in order to advance our civilization, take care of the poorest, provide opportunity for education and work, and keep our country great. we don't stay great by staying the same. it takes courage to keep doing the right thing. No one here is saying give people something for nothing. Only that the greatest nation on earth should be able to provide affordable health care to its citizens. we all have to work hard to make that happen. it isn't something for nothing.

The greatest nation on earth is 'greatest' for a lot of reasons, one of which is that we do things differently than our european counterparts. The more we try to bend America toward euro values, the more we risk becoming less great, more mediocre. That risk is especially apparent when the policies being promoted endanger one of the cornerstones this country was built upon - individual rights.

 

[Matt J]

The greatest nation on earth is 'greatest' for a lot of reasons, one of which is that we do things differently than our european counterparts. The more we try to bend America toward euro values, the more we risk becoming less great, more mediocre. That risk is especially apparent when the policies being promoted endanger one of the cornerstones this country was built upon - individual rights.

The problem is that insurance companies are currently just bending us over.

I finally understand the difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservative have and don't want that to change, even if it means their neighbor would benefit. Liberals have and want their neighbors to benefit as well. I wonder what Jesus would say?

 

[30ashopper]

Let me just start with a simple - :roll:

The problem is that insurance companies are currently just bending us over.

I finally understand the difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservative have and don't want that to change, even if it means their neighbor would benefit.

Generally, and I don't speak for all conservatives, but I think the gist of how they feel is that everyone should be afforded the same opportunities to earn whatever they can achieve and not be penalized for those achievments.

Liberals have and want their neighbors to benefit as well. I wonder what Jesus would say?

If liberals want to give away what they have, they have the right to do so. My point was about the slippery slope liberals stand on when they take from one individual to give to another. You infringe individual rights in the process. You can't claim someone has an "right" to something that isn't theirs to begin with. Healthcare is not a right, it's a privilege, and if you provide that privilege to everyone, you are going to have to restrict individual rights in order to provide it.

 

[Matt J]

Let me just start with a simple - :roll:



Generally, and I don't speak for all conservatives, but I think the gist of how they feel is that everyone should be afforded the same opportunities to earn whatever they can achieve and not be penalized for those achievments.



If liberals want to give away what they have, they have the right to do so. This post was about the slippery sloap liberals stand on when they take from one individual to give to another. You infringe individual rights in the process.

You see it's interesting how you refer to individual rights when speaking of conservatives. The vast majority of conservatives are also self described "Christians". This is where the slope and line get extremely blurred.

As for earning whatever one can achieve and not be penalized, most conservative's start off with a nice hefty chunk, even better now since the Republican's did away with the Estate Tax. The slow roll back of laws, morals, and modern day customs that the conservatives espouse as personal freedoms and liberties is nothing more than an attempt to establish a new monarchy. I'm fairly certain the founding fathers would be quite disappointed.

 

[30ashopper]

You see it's interesting how you refer to individual rights when speaking of conservatives. The vast majority of conservatives are also self described "Christians". This is where the slope and line get extremely blurred.

As for earning whatever one can achieve and not be penalized, most conservative's start off with a nice hefty chunk, even better now since the Republican's did away with the Estate Tax. The slow roll back of laws, morals, and modern day customs that the conservatives espouse as personal freedoms and liberties is nothing more than an attempt to establish a new monarchy. I'm fairly certain the founding fathers would be quite disappointed.

You'll have to take that up with the conservatives you're addressing directly. I'm a skeptical christian conservative leaning libertarian, and I've earned everything I have through my own hard work and suffering. I'd also never try and force religious or social beliefs on anyone, but you already knew that didn't you?

(This thread is now officially off the rails.)

 

[scooterbug44]

The problem is that insurance companies are currently just bending us over.

Biggest issue I have with being "required" to have insurance. Gov't mandated ankle grabber.

 

[Dominoes]

You'll have to take that up with the conservatives you're addressing directly. I'm a skeptical christian conservative leaning libertarian, and I've earned everything I have through my own hard work and suffering. I'd also never try and force religious or social beliefs on anyone, but you already knew that didn't you?

(This thread is now officially off the rails.)

I too worked hard for everything I have. Most of these folks are brain-washed beyond belief as to what a conservative is. I went to public school, started working in a vegetable garden every summer after age 11 just to buy school clothes, and crazy enough haven't attended church regularly in years. So I came into this world with nothing but a loving family and have built-up a nice estate and nest egg while giving 35% of my work to the federal government. I am generous with childrens charities and just gave out 68 w-2's to my employees. I joked with my family this christmas about how we are "evangelicals." Most liberals I know actually came from wealthy families and inherited family money and never had to build a fortune of their own. The other liberals I know either lack to intiative or talent to do what I have done.

 

[Teresa]

The greatest nation on earth is 'greatest' for a lot of reasons, one of which is that we do things differently than our european counterparts. The more we try to bend America toward euro values, the more we risk becoming less great, more mediocre. That risk is especially apparent when the policies being promoted endanger one of the cornerstones this country was built upon - individual rights.

and that is an example of how we all have different ways at looking at the same situation. The way I see it is this: This is America. Not Europe. Whatever we do in this or any other issue is uniquely American. We have the resources and intellect and power to advance this country. We are a nation of people who think and dream big - because our freedom allows us to do this. We are literally FREE to choose to care for our citizens in the best way we can. it is the best way to honor ourselves and our freedoms.

In my little opinion, we do risk making America mediocre or worse if our egocentric and consumption-driven culture continues. but that is another issue for another day.

isn't it so wild how we all look at things so differently from a philosophical standpoint? but we are all just people and we are much more alike than we think. I do appreciate 30Ashops viewpoint because they are completely reasonable, logical and correct. but for whatever reason, I look at them and describe them from a different perspective. imo, all of these views and perspectives are necessary in this and any other national debate.

 

[GoodWitch58]

and that is an example of how we all have different ways at looking at the same situation. The way I see it is this: This is America. Not Europe. Whatever we do in this or any other issue is uniquely American. We have the resources and intellect and power to advance this country. We are a nation of people who think and dream big - because our freedom allows us to do this. We are literally FREE to choose to care for our citizens in the best way we can. it is the best way to honor ourselves and our freedoms.

In my little opinion, we do risk making America mediocre or worse if our egocentric and consumption-driven culture continues. but that is another issue for another day.

isn't it so wild how we all look at things so differently from a philosophical standpoint? but we are all just people and we are much more alike than we think. I do appreciate 30Ashops viewpoint because they are completely reasonable, logical and correct. but for whatever reason, I look at them and describe them from a different perspective. imo, all of these views and perspectives are necessary in this and any other national debate.

Agree with value of different ideas for an expanding discussion, Tootsie, the difference I see is that you listen and allow some different ideas to enter your mindset. Others, not so much.
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I have never understood how helping someone either individually or in the aggregrate takes anything away from the one who is helping--in my experience, just the oppoiste happens.

During my lifetime, I have not lost an individual right because I or the government or anyone/anything else has helped someone...The loss of privacy due to the illegal wire-tapping came close; but that was not in the process helping any citizen.

The idea of all of us being helped when we lift each other up still seems to work in my mind. I am trying to understand the point of view that says all government is bad; all corporations are good; and that no one should care for others--rather, everyone is on their own and only has responsibility for themselves--it just makes no sense to me based on my lifetime of experience.

And, I am not sure that I want it to...it seems it would be such an unhappy set of circumstances.

 

[scooterbug44]

I just don't see any benefit to me (financial or otherwise) that would come from my friends, neighbors, and fellow Americans being denied affordable medical care.

Isn't a healthy population good for us as a country?

I can certainly think of a lot of negatives that might ensue, but not any positives.