Have the terrorists achieved their aims?

[idlewind]

While I do not agree with the Iraq war, I don't see how the war harmed our American principles. I do think the objectives could have been achieved much more efficiently. ( see Desert Storm)

Many parts of the Patriot Act are an abomination to a free people. This may be the worst result of the attacks.

Points 3 is ludicrous and point 4 is a gross exaggeration of the mainstream views.

 

[Lynnie]

Feels like some wedge-drivin', definitely.

 

[30ashopper]

Those damn democrats fearmongering with terrorism and national security!



Other than your opening sentence and closing parentheses-
I agree with your fine post!

I did add "some" to soften the entry up.

 

[Koa]

I think terrorism was around, long before David and Goliath.

1) I'm not sure that I agree that we have a long history of avoiding pre-emptive strikes. War has changed these days, and when you look at a nation's controller who kills his own people and beheads people to make points, we should all be a little more than scared at what he could do with a nuclear weapon. I wouldn't want to be the President of the USA trying to make that call. I do however wish that we focused more on the USA rather than other countries. We are spending tons of money in Iraq and Afghanistan to build stuff that we blew up, while there are many Americans in need and the government cannot pay for all the stuff they are doing. Again, a weak stance may mean no more USA and no more Americans.

2) I agree. The Patriot Act should have caused riots among the patriots in America.

3) redundant -- see patriot act.

4) This would be a loooooooooooooooooooong stretch, and has NO merit. I have yet to hear anyone say that Muslims shouldn't or cannot practice their religion. Not one, so you must be making that up.

Remember that Congress (Democratic majority) voted to approve going into war against Bin Laden, and keep on approving money to fund the war in Iraq, so don't blame it solely on the idiot pretending to run the show.

I'm curious to know who fees you this political stuff? Are you hearing it at a college?

 

[futurebeachbum]

Administrations have been nibbling at the edges of our Constitutional rights for decades, but the so-called Patriot Act was an all out, frontal assault on our rights.

One of my 2 key voting guidelines is to never vote for anyone who voted for the so-called Patriot act or its renewal.

 

[GoodWitch58]

The theory behind terrorism is that random violent acts can enable David to beat Goliath.

With a few random violent acts Al-Qaeda has caused us to
(1) abandon our long-standing disavowal of preemptive war (vs. Iraq)
(2) abrogate our Constitutional guarantees of privacy & freedom from unreasonable search & seizure (the ?Patriot? Act)
(3) decide that accused terrorists can be held indefinitely without bringing them to trial; they don't have to be told the charges against them, nor shown the evidence against them, and, in some cases, it's ok to torture them
(4) argue about whether Muslims deserve freedom of religion.

Have the terrorists achieved their aims?

I think this is a question that bears thinking about. We did invade a country that had done us no harm; we did take away rights via the Patriot Act; and we did hold prisoners (one of them a mere boy of 15) for a long time without charging them; and we are in the midst of an argument about Muslims that is very ugly.
I found this piece interesting and thought provoking:
dabiele Archibugi: Terrorism and Cosmopolitanism

But what have the Afghani people got to do with all this? How far are the victims of the bombing responsible for the terrorist attacks? No direct logistic involvement emerges. The people guilty of the suicide attacks were trained in flying schools in Florida. Luckily, nobody thinks it is necessary to bomb Florida! So why bomb Afghanistan? Only to demonstrate that the United States are capable of a military response?

 

[ugabuga]

I'm curious to know who fees you this political stuff? Are you hearing it at a college?

My orig post on this thread was meant to suggest that the terrorists had indeed achieved at least some of their aims in changing & disrupting our society & that they could & would probably take pleasure & satisfaction in this fact.

I didn't mean to suggest that the terrorists' aims specifically included the four points I offered as examples?just that IMO these examples were definite reactions to terrorism and IMO moved us away from the ideals of a free & open democratic society.

Koa, you say you're ?...curious to know who fee[d]s you this political stuff? Are you hearing it at a college??
Koa, I'm 65 yrs old. I worked for the US Defense Dept for 27 yrs.--17 yrs in the Pentagon. I worked for NATO. I worked for a US Congressman. I'm a veteran. Nobody ?feeds? me political stuff. I base my views on my life experience, my intelligence (such as it is), what I read, discussions w/ others...
Does someone feed you political stuff?
It's ok w/ me if you don't agree w/ my worldview?and believe me, I'll try as hard as I can to honestly consider other points of view...but please don't be condescending.

 

[LuciferSam]

I think prior to 9/11 there was always a pent up Xenophobia in this country among certain people. The attacks caused some people to rationalize and verbalize their fears which are born of ignorance. I remember right after 9/11 I was at a bar having a beer when a couple of ladies were having a heated discussion where they attacked all things foreign. They were using 9/11 as a reason for their anger. In their opinion we should cease all immigration legal or illegal so that things like this would never happen again. Of course I had to throw some gasoline on their fire and set them straight. Their anger honestly boiled down to the fact that they and their friends had trouble finding well paying jobs, probably because they lacked skills, but nevertheless they blamed it on foreigners. These ladies were of the trash variety, I'll let you guess what color. Hint Snow _____ and the Seven Dwarves.

I infuriated them when I told them that I have worked and gone to school with with many foreign born US citizens including Muslims. Of course they hit the roof when they heard that. One of them went to get the owner to throw me out, but he was passed out in his office. In conclusion, I don't think 9/11 changed peoples opinions so much as it gave a significant number of people the rationale to verbalize and act on their deeply rooted prejudices.

 

[Elephant Child]

I think prior to 9/11 there was always a pent up Xenophobia in this country among certain people. The attacks caused some people to rationalize and verbalize their fears which are born of ignorance. I remember right after 9/11 I was at a bar having a beer when a couple of ladies were having a heated discussion where they attacked all things foreign. They were using 9/11 as a reason for their anger. In their opinion we should cease all immigration legal or illegal so that things like this would never happen again. Of course I had to throw some gasoline on their fire and set them straight. Their anger honestly boiled down to the fact that they and their friends had trouble finding well paying jobs, probably because they lacked skills, but nevertheless they blamed it on foreigners. These ladies were of the trash variety, I'll let you guess what color. Hint Snow _____ and the Seven Dwarves.

I infuriated them when I told them that I have worked and gone to school with with many foreign born US citizens including Muslims. Of course they hit the roof when they heard that. One of them went to get the owner to throw me out, but he was passed out in his office. In conclusion, I don't think 9/11 changed peoples opinions so much as it gave a significant number of people the rationale to verbalize and act on their deeply rooted prejudices.

This story is an imaginary tale from the mind of a ____________________.
(you can fill in the blank as we all know Lucifer! )

 

[GoodWitch58]

...and, along the same lines, I think it gave some of our leadership the perfect opening to do what some of them had wanted to do for years: invade Iraq and finish the job that had been started.

First president Bush knew that was a bad move and stopped them the first time... 9-11 gave them the excuse, and using the fabricated "tale" from the Iraqi expats, they went ahead with it; and the Congress and most of the citizens believed the leadership because everyone was so frightened.

Yet, it was just as big a mistake then, as it had been when first President Bush stopped them...and now we see where we are today.

Fear is a powerful motivator and if people do not educate themselves to the truth of a situation, it can propel reasonable people into doing completely unreasonable things.