I think we're about to declare war on Libya

[30ashopper]

Libya: US Tomahawk missiles herald the beginning of the end for Gaddafi | Mail Online

We're hitting a lot more than command and control centers. (Lots of pictures of the destruction above.)

 

[Lake View Too]

I look forward to your sardonic posts because of the reality they portray. I appreciate someone calling it like it is cause that is truth. You are funny, pithy, and am glad you are part of this forum.
I have usually been popular with the masses wherever I have gone and I noticed the only time there was a problem was not a difference of opinion, but a difference in motive. Motives intended to harm while dressed in white, not noticeable at first but proven by fact later, have been raw meat to a tiger in my book. This is not in reference to you( the bad motive thing), but just saying that a healthy dose of cynicism is not necessarily a bad thing.
Much respect for ya dude, as I have for many people on this board.
Also, I am not at all intimidated by opposition (not to say I don't have fear at times)- having faced many battles, I would say it's the wind beneath my wings.
Love your forthright attitude- post on.
By the way, metallica sucks.

The Metallica reference was a joke. I can't stand them either. (I don't hate kittens either.) I think I want to be Stephen Colbert. Will anybody give me a talk show?

 

[MrMentalFitness]

Depends, how much oil does my neighbor have?

Really, there are plenty of nations capable of doing this if the U.N. is gung ho about it. We need to concentrate on internal matters and on getting out of the wars we are already in.

110 cruise missles @ about 500K per = 55 million dollars. That was just in the first few hours of this war, which will likely stretch on for months or even years.

So then, you would sit back and do nothing - perhaps working on your yard and do some home repairs so the place is looking spiffy - and keep your kids in line, make sure they're well provided for and all that. Not to mention that there might be an expense involved in going over to take action. Funds are tight - better to stay out of it.

Who could find a problem with such a practical decision, after all?

I mean, why not let it all burn?

Your other neighbors aren't doing anything at this point because they've seen how comfortable you are in your isolation - yard looks great, hedges trimmed, kids all have neat haircuts and clean clothes, and you're getting out of debt because you have decided to spend within your means and put away funds for a secure future.

Meanwhile, there's a tyrant next door who is doing atomic elbows and flying dropkicks on his beloved darling dear who's bleeding and crying out for help.

You can always turn up the volume on the stereo to drown out the sound of the terror.

Of course, you may sleep soundly, but some of your kids might have nightmares.

Still, you do not run the risk of going over there only to have her go psycho on you by turning against you to side with her abuser.

It's a pickle, that's for sure.

 

[scooterbug44]

110 cruise missles @ about 500K per = 55 million dollars. That was just in the first few hours of this war, which will likely stretch on for months or even years.

Oh good, I was worried they cost $1 million each and we were spending too much money.

But it they're only $500K.....................

Each missile = 10 teachers' or cops' annual salaries :roll:

 

[MrMentalFitness]

Oh good, I was worried they cost $1 million each and we were spending too much money.

But it they're only $500K.....................

Each missile = 10 teachers' or cops' annual salaries :roll:

I see what you're hinting at. You're saying we should launch teachers and cops into Lybia! GENIUS plan! I'm calling the Pentagon right now!

 

[scooterbug44]

Keep your fingers crossed - supposedly Libya has called an immediate cease fire!

 

[MrMentalFitness]

I wonder why this sudden international resolve is aimed at Lybia, but not Iran, etc., where pro-democracy movements have been brutally put down?

I guess they ascertain who doesn't have the ability to fight back and go after that target.

Of course, it does seem strange that action has been taken where financial matters are most at risk.

Very interesting.

 

[scooterbug44]

It's Libya's turn - we overthrew Iran's government in '53 for oil and then propped up a dictator for a quarter century.

They just need to be patient - it will be their turn again soon. :roll:

 

[MrMentalFitness]

When I was right smack dab in the middle of the first Gulf War (Desert Storm), I was on the U.S.S. Tarawa as an Air Traffic Controller - in other words, I didn't do squat but play guitar and eat myself into a stupor because there was no bad weather and the pilots didn't need us.

I remember going over there totally gung-ho, rarin' to do my part to help lay the smack down. A patriot and whatnot. Felt the same way when we were bombing Iranian oil wells and boats, when off the coast of Russia playing games with those suckers, when irritating the Chinese by hanging off their coast - it was all a real hoot.

Unfortunately, I have this problem wherein my mind won't settle for a surface answer or appearance, and I habitually question everything - a habit that got me into plenty of hot water while I was in the military, but also one which enabled me to weasel out of that trouble repeatedly and make rank faster than the average bear.

But there came a moment, right in the middle of it all, when I was sitting in the dark at a radar console at two or three in the morning - sweating my giblets off in a biological warfare suit because a scud missile had just splashed down about a thousand yards off our stern - and the thought occurred to me that I was a complete idiot for being there risking my life for what I intuitively realized was an entirely oil-based deception.

That moment is always crystal clear in my mind, despite all the drunken ports of call that have erased most other fond memories from that time period.

When I got back to the states, I was a changed man. I distrust all claims to authority, I challenge all convention, and I have so deeply studied the realities of human nature and the mind that I absolutely don't place my hope in so-called 'leaders' or elected officials, because they are all helpless in the face of significant events.

The main thing I got out of it is to always seek the motivation behind the spin, and to realize that people are being killed by the tens of thousands over the past couple decades not because of any ideal, but because there are profits to be made, and that the more that continues to happen, the more enemies will be generated to ensure the cycle continues.

We are not fighting over what's right. We are fighting because, for a very long time now, we have not done what's truly right.

 

[futurebeachbum]

I have spoken to various fellows who bring up a "What Would You Do?" scenario regarding seeing a neighbor physically beat his wife.

"What Would You Do?"

Would you interfere to stop him, possibly getting into a fight yourself, risking your own skin - POSSIBLY running the risk that SHE WOULD TURN ON YOU, too?

Or would you leave it alone and let her deal with the fact that she hitched up with such a monster?

There was a time when there was no 'question' - I'd jump in there to save the day, but then I actually witnessed another guy do the same only to have the battered and bloody woman attack him to defend her abusive man. That turned out badly because he wound up having to kick both their butts. Lo and behold, a short time later, she was eating fist sandwiches again, and nobody stepped in to help her.

Not long after that, me and some of the fellas were hanging at my crib and a young lady who lived a few doors down from me was being beaten out front of my door (as per a regular schedule of weekly abuse) by her military boyfriend. People had called the cops in the past but she kept bringing the guy back into her life, so people stopped calling the cops.

I'd had a few and I was fed up with it, so I went 'half way' and yelled to the guy to stop messing up my good time (of course, what I was really telling him to do was stop beating the woman, but used my party as the 'cover' excuse). He glared at me and ordered her down to her place where we could hear her screaming and crying in the distance as he continued his attack.

Next thing ya know me, my roomie, and the rest of the fellows were doing a full-force entry into her crib through the door and front window to beat that coward down like a dog. It's like we were possessed. He ran out the door yelling like a little girl with no shirt or shoes in the cold - hauling it down the street screaming for his life. I told her that if he comes back, then she would be on her own.

Strangely, he never came back.

Despite what I told her, we were hoping he would give it one more shot, because we were on the lookout for a couple weeks, just itching to beat the crap out of him.

Now, what does this have to do with Libya.

Hmmmmm....

It's the QUESTION, really.

What would you do if your neighbor was beating his wife who is desperate to be free from his monstrous oppression?

Maybe you wouldn't go in unilaterally - even though you might have the firepower. You might have condemnation raining down on you, that it is "none of your business." That's cuz the COMMUNITY is allowing the injustice to happen.

Maybe you take a stand and remind your community of what's right, and then you and the other neighbors just get together and decide that kind of behavior is not acceptable, and you all go in and straighten things out, making things better for the whole community.

Or maybe you just sit there and listen to the screaming and watch the blood run until they finally cart her off in an ambulance to have the funeral a few days later.

What Would You Do?

I'd tell her to leave or to fight her own battles.

A better version of your story would be:

Your neighbor, who has a lot of old car parts in his backyard is beating his wife. She is also hitting him as well. Its getting worse and you're afraid that she'll want to move in with some of you (which you definitely DON"T want to happen.) Further, you and your neighbors all have old cars that barely run and all need some of those parts that he keeps in his backyard. If you help her, you're thinking that she'll be grateful and give you a deal on those parts which you desperately need. You could buy them other places, but you think it will probably be cheaper to get them from her. Even if she won't give you a deal, it at least gives you another place to get them as they become more scarce.​

There are many countries where some portion of the population is in revolt against the current government and being treated most unpleasantly. Were this analogy correct and driving the Libya decision, we'd be just as obligated to implement no-fly zones over Russia to protect the Chechens, over China to protect the Uighurs, Syria and Turkey to protect the Kurds, etc...

If this is how we deal with moral obligations, then what about our obligation to fix things in countries where the despots are starving the populace (Kim in N. Korea, Mugabe in Zimbabwe, etc..?) Why haven't we rounded up a few outraged countries and gone in and fixed those countries too?

Based on that, we also definitely should have had an obligation to come to the defense of Georgia when the Russians attacked it several years ago. That was international aggression where one country launched a sneak attack on another. That seems far more egregious to me than internal strife within one country.

Where do you draw the line? And how do you justify whatever the basis for drawing that line is?

Morality as an excuse for intervention in Libya is more of a convenient rationalization than an actual reason. If Libya were somewhere other than sitting on top of 4.5B barrels of oil, this would all be a non-event.