Illegal Immigration

[Andy A]

Geo, I know what you are trying to do and I'm not going into a litany of issues caused by illegal immigration. Cost to Americans paying their taxes is reason enough. You are bright enough and intelligent enough to find the answers for yourself. Do so! There is plenty of information out there on illegal immigration cause and effect.

 

[30ashopper]

I am at a point in my life that I don't accept talking points as common sense.

I believed for a long time that illegal immigration is a problem. But now I realize that I don't personally know why it's a problem-only that it is. So rather than having my head where the sun doesn't shine I would like to become educated.

Can someone pls tell me why illegal immigration is a problem. No rhetoric please (because there are laws that need to be followed, because it threatens our freedom, because it makes us unsafe- never forget 9-11, etc etc).

Why is this a problem?

Why is this high up on our list of issues?

I think even folks who know it is a problem stand to benefit from this exercise.

Well first, border security, independent of illegal imigration, is a top issue. It's not hard to figure out why, I'm sure you understand Geo.

The biggest issue is taxes and cost of services rendered, illegals don't pay taxes but use the services. That's pretty much it.

In Florida it's not a big deal, we generate state tax revenue from consumption taxes, so we fair just fine regardless. The federal government and other states however don't. (Honestly I could care less about this.)

Down the road, it might become increasing important once Obamacare kicks in. These folks will not be paying for healthcare through the mandate, but will be using medical services. So getting them on the I.R.S.'s books makes sure they pay their fair share. (Although, at the typical income levels of migrant workers, they would probably stand to get a check back, so I'm not sure how big an issue this will be, illegals may end up saving us money!)

Also there's the fairness factor - legal immigrants jump through hoops and spend years working toward citizenship. There's no reason why someone here illegally should be given special treatment.

Last but not least - voting. 15 million people have the ability to sway elections.

 

[30ashopper]

Rubio statement:

Our legal immigration system must continue to welcome those who seek to embrace America’s blessings and abide by the legal and orderly system that is in place. The American people have every right to expect the federal government to secure our borders and prevent illegal immigration. It has become all too easy for some in Washington to ignore the desperation and urgency of those like the citizens of Arizona who are disproportionately wrestling with this problem as well as the violence, drug trafficking and lawlessness that spills over from across the border.

States certainly have the right to enact policies to protect their citizens, but Arizona’s policy shows the difficulty and limitations of states trying to act piecemeal to solve what is a serious federal problem. From what I have read in news reports, I do have concerns about this legislation. While I don’t believe Arizona’s policy was based on anything other than trying to get a handle on our broken borders, I think aspects of the law, especially that dealing with ‘reasonable suspicion,’ are going to put our law enforcement officers in an incredibly difficult position. It could also unreasonably single out people who are here legally, including many American citizens. Throughout American history and throughout this administration we have seen that when government is given an inch it takes a mile.

I hope Congress and the Obama Administration will use the Arizona legislation not as an excuse to try and jam through amnesty legislation, but to finally act on border states’ requests for help with security and fix the things about our immigration system that can be fixed right now – securing the border, reforming the visa and entry process, and cracking down on employers who exploit illegal immigrants.

 

[Geo]

The freedom, for which real brave folks from the heartland and their fathers throughout history when the hardships came and those who fought and sacrificed to keep those of us safe by the establishment of secure boundaries upon which this great nation of ours constantly struggles to provide for law abiding citizens who came to this country through legal means and the debt of gratitude and obligation we owe them in fairness to the ancestors instead of allowing her laws to be violated in the name of anarchy which has plagued so many other countries and led to the downfall of the civilizations upon which their governments show no pride and respect for the soil upon which the real Americans base their values.

I asked to be spared rhetoric. You provided a 123 word sentence of just that.

Here is my one sentence response-

Rhetoric works both ways, you could insist that we are a nation of immigrants and that by treating immigrants today so badly we are dishonoring every one of our ancestors who arrived by boat before us as well as the offspring who have benefited from their journey and their hard work which made America the Beautiful the proud land it is today.

Of course, mine was just as much BS as yours.

 

[Geo]

Geo, I know what you are trying to do and I'm not going into a litany of issues caused by illegal immigration. Cost to Americans paying their taxes is reason enough. You are bright enough and intelligent enough to find the answers for yourself. Do so! There is plenty of information out there on illegal immigration cause and effect.

It's no secret what I am trying to do. But in case you guessed wrong-
I am flirting with the idea that illegal immigration isn't that big a problem. I am challenging the universal notion that is. In the process I might discover that it really is a big problem.

So far, the only real problem I am hearing that illegal immigrants are causing is related to money- specifically tax dollars.

Seems to me it would make more sense to implement a policy that provides some sort of status to illegals that allows for them to work and pay taxes and that steers them in the right direction toward the long road to citizenship.

This would solve our illegal immigrant "problem" moreso than the solution in Arizona. And it would help pay for our children's future which the last two administrations have mortgaged.

 

[Santiago]

It's times like this I'm glad we elected a constitutional lawyer as President. At least we have someone at the top who understands.

 

[AndrewG]

Illegal just doesn't seem politically correct anymore. bring em if they truly intend to make our Country better.

 

[30ashopper]

It's no secret what I am trying to do. But in case you guessed wrong-
I am flirting with the idea that illegal immigration isn't that big a problem. I am challenging the universal notion that is. In the process I might discover that it really is a big problem.

So far, the only real problem I am hearing that illegal immigrants are causing is related to money- specifically tax dollars.

Obamacare is pushing this to the fore front. 15 million people enjoying completely free healthcare would be a huge drain our the federal government's revenue, and on the healthcare infrastructure we currently have in place.

?The immigration problem is a very difficult problem, and there?s no easy answer to it. At the time my parents came, the U.S. had completely free immigration, people coming in from all over the world. You can have that, and we should have it, if you did not have a welfare state. If you have a welfare state, and you have welfare arrangements, so that people come, for not necessarily the same reason our grandparents did, because they saw better opportunity here, but if they come to feed on the state as it were, you can not have completely free immigration. In principal I?d like to see free immigration, but you can?t have it with a welfare state.?

- Friedman

Seems to me it would make more sense to implement a policy that provides some sort of status to illegals that allows for them to work and pay taxes and that steers them in the right direction toward the long road to citizenship.

This would solve our illegal immigrant "problem" moreso than the solution in Arizona. And it would help pay for our children's future which the last two administrations have mortgaged.

That's what I would like to see. Which brings us back to the fight we fought back when George Bush proposed just such a policy. Democrats will likely propose something similar if they ever get legislation put together. I'm not optimistic that it will pass however.

 

[Geo]

Hi Shopper, glad to see we agree on the tax fix.

I'm not with you however on the first part of your reply. First and foremost, I don't know who Friedman is so I do not believe that we are living in a welfare state because he says so.

Regarding obama's healthcare plan- wouldn't it be simple to say that only citizens would qualify for any benefits. This would serve as further motivation for illegals to start paying taxes and go through the process of becoming citizens.

Let's say hypothetically it took them 7 years from start to finish. That would be 7 years of them paying into the system before they were eligible for any healthcare benefits.

Again, this seems like a more productive solution than Arizona's.

 

[30ashopper]

Hi Shopper, glad to see we agree on the tax fix.

I'm not with you however on the first part of your reply. First and foremost, I don't know who Friedman is so I do not believe that we are living in a welfare state because he says so.

Milton Freidman - Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding obama's healthcare plan- wouldn't it be simple to say that only citizens would qualify for any benefits. This would serve as further motivation for illegals to start paying taxes and go through the process of becoming citizens.

Let's say hypothetically it took them 7 years from start to finish. That would be 7 years of them paying into the system before they were eligible for any healthcare benefits.

Again, this seems like a more productive solution than Arizona's.

Legal immigrants that pay taxes or collect tax credits are part of the system. Illegal immigrants are a drain on the system, just as they are today. Hence the need to solve the immigration problem. As I stated previously, I think legal low income migrant workers will end up costing us more than they save us. This is what Freidman spoke of. When you have a welfare state comprised of free services for "less productive" members of society, you tend to attract the wrong kind of immigrant. This is why social democracies in Europe have closed borders and heavily restricted immigration policy. Progressives are pushing the U.S. in this direction.

As far as Arizon is concerned, again, the federal government isn't doing much to solve the border problem currently. Try and explain why the Arizona law (which is supposed to act as a deterrent) should be repealed to the families of people who have been killed by illegals looking for safe travel paths across the border.