My Attempt to Clear up Immigration Misinformation

[GoodWitch58]

I'm with you on the enforcement of laws, closing our borders, etc.

But I'm not on board with the "Speak English, this is America" sentiment. McClintock discussed assimilation. But his speech made it seem as if the way it has worked and should work is-

You come here, immediately learn english fluently and now we are one. Truth is it takes a few generations.

My great grandparents came from Poland in the early 1900's. They spoke only broken English into their 90's. Their children (e.g. my grandmother who lives in Chicago) speak both English and Polish fluently. But I wouldn't consider her an assimilated American. She gravitates toward the Polish neighborhoods where she buys Polish food from the poles who just got here, she attends Catholic mass in Polish, etc.

Then you have my dad who spoke little polish and was probably the first generation to assimilate in the sense that he was more American than Polish. Get to me and my generation and there isn't a trace of Polish language, culture, etc.

I believe my experience is more representative of the assimilation process of immigrants than what McClintock envisions.

Geo, perhaps you will appreciate my experience in Poland. I traveled with a friend whose background is much like you describe yours. I was fascinated with the country after seeing an impressive exhibit on Poland's history at the Art Institute. We did not learn much about Poland in my World History classes, so I knew little.

Because of that exhibit, my friend and I decided to go visit a friend of mine who lives in Sopot. Before going to see him, though, we decided to take a tour of the country -- as it turned out, I was the only person in the group of 28 who did not have a direct familial connection to Poland.

I was privileged to share the experience with these families; many of whom were taking their children and grandchildren back to the country of their ancestry...we had an 85 year old man who had been taken from his village in Poland to a camp in Siberia, where he had met and married -and he had never been back -- until our tour bus brought him and his son and daughter-in-law into the little village. There was not a dry eye on the bus as we watched this gentleman gaze out the bus window to see his home for the first time in all those years. I will treasure always the conversations I had with him during that trip.

Poland is a beautiful country and has experienced and survived so much and I am so glad I visited. The people are wonderful and were so gracious about the fact that most of us spoke no Polish. At the end of the trip I had learned the essentials: "ice, beer, ice cream and bathroom! One day I hope to go again and see the Northeast portion of the country--the only area that I missed. Sopot where my friend lives is a beautiful resort town on the Baltic Sea...my favorite place, though, is Zakopane in the Tatra mountains...what a gorgeous place!

IMO we would have different attitudes in this country if all of us had to do two things: spend some time in either the Peace Corps or the military or AmeriCorps, etc., and spend at least one year traveling or living in a different culture. It does not take long to see that we humans are all much more alike than we are different...and there is no need to fear people just because they are different and speak a different language.

 

[Andy A]

IMO we would have different attitudes in this country if all of us had to do two things: spend some time in either the Peace Corps or the military or AmeriCorps, etc., and spend at least one year traveling or living in a different culture. It does not take long to see that we humans are all much more alike than we are different...and there is no need to fear people just because they are different and speak a different language.

One year is not enough. It should be at least two but I couldn't agree with you more.
I noted, while I was in stationed in Germany, that though I often tried to utilize the language the usual result was that I was answered in English. I guess that is an indication of my lack of linguistic skills and lack of ability to learn othe languages. I did note, however, that most countries, do indeed, have a national language and do not have "press one for English". They have the same national pride in their country that we have and rightly so.
In regard to your travelers who only speak English and expect all other to do so as well. That falls into the category of "the ugly American" of which I witnessed a perfect example on a bus tour of Madrid one day. But that is another story.

 

[scooterbug44]

I was taught to speak to others/greet them in their language out of politeness and then they typically reply in that language or YOUR language out of politeness (if you are less than fluent). That is how it should be regardless of where you are in the world.

I am hilarious speaking other languages (because I try to yammer away the same way I do in English and butcher verb tenses) but I always get points for effort and it makes it easier on both sides.

Obviously I think people who live in the United States should learn to speak English - but I don't think we should expect and legally demand full fluency - and think those who want to are rude and xenophobic.

 

[Geo]

Great post GW!

Andy, your post inspired a few thoughts-

While it might not explicitly say so in govt documents, I believe it is fair to say that English is our nation's language. Sure, they might not always have "press 1 for English" like we do for Spanish speakers but they do have citizens willing/able to accomodate us by speaking English.

I think I would have less of a problem with the "Speak English, this is America" attitude if we were a more established country with our own language. But we are a young country by world standards and we borrowed our language. If anything, our history ("give me your tired, your poor") is such that it would make more sense if we were far more heterogeneous with respect to linguistics. I would imagine geography is the reason why. Babbling.

 

[Andy A]

Great post GW!

Andy, your post inspired a few thoughts-

While it might not explicitly say so in govt documents, I believe it is fair to say that English is our nation's language. Sure, they might not always have "press 1 for English" like we do for Spanish speakers but they do have citizens willing/able to accomodate us by speaking English.

I think I would have less of a problem with the "Speak English, this is America" attitude if we were a more established country with our own language. But we are a young country by world standards and we borrowed our language. If anything, our history ("give me your tired, your poor") is such that it would make more sense if we were far more heterogeneous with respect to linguistics. I would imagine geography is the reason why. Babbling.

I am sorry but I disagree. The continuance of one's native culture in one's home and closed community is completely understandable and acceptable and should even be encouraged. That said, when it come to governmental and public function and agencies, one should learn enough of the English language to be proficient enough to function. I realize this doesn't happen with recent legal immigrants overnight but it should be a goal for all seeking to live in the United States, and yes, I think English should be our recognized national language. I also realize it isn't now, and to me, that is sad. Sorry. I don't mean to offend but my beliefs on our nationality are strong.

 

[scooterbug44]

I don't think our country's age is as much of a factor as the heterogeneous nature of our population and the different waves of immigration.

Growing up, we always had the special ethnic neighborhoods or token families of a certain heritage (many whose geographic homeland location escaped us until the Soviet Union broke up or they showed us on a map like Canoehead), but the mix was what made life interesting and also ensured that there is not a clear "American" racial group like most other countries have.

I always laugh at movies where a spy can seamlessly change nationalities or put on a disguise and never get called on it, as most countries have such a homogeneous population that they can instantly tell an outsider. If you are dressed properly and not being a tourist arse they assume you are not an American, so when they guess your nationality it is usually where your ancestors came from.

As an aside, we've been speaking "american" here for hundreds of years and each year brings new "foreign" words that we adopt as part of our language. So how do we enforce "english only" with a language full of creme brulee, salsa, sauerkraut, kabob, naan, chile con carne, and sashimi? ;-)

 

[scooterbug44]

I know English is not our "official" language, but why do you think it is important to our heritage that it be explicitly stated? It's what the entire world recognizes as our language.

It's not like diplomats have to think about what language to use when meeting with us or that the vast majority of our newspapers, television stations, radio programs, internet sites, advertisements, schools, stores, events, you name it, don't use it.

The fact that you can find a community within our borders or a certain group who choose to communicate in a different language is nothing new and is not something I find threatening.

The fact that so many Americans DON'T speak multiple languages is hindering us in both the business and military spheres. Making English (which many inhabitants of Britain would say is not what we speak anyway) our "official" language will not make that situation any better.

 

[Geo]

My brother, I agree with almost every word you just said.

But let me ask you this. If English isn't our national language then what is?

Not much positive would come out of making it law, IMHO. But I believe that any ugliness we already have ("Speak English, dammit- this is America") would only get uglier.

Other than major cities and the drivers license facilities and courthouses throughout the US, we do very little to accomodate non English speakers as it is.

 

[Geo]

Good post, Scooty.

 

[Gidget]

I just read this today. See link below for even more explanation of soon to be new law.

Seven things we do know about SB 1070, which Gov. Jan Brewer signed into law April 23 and is scheduled to go into effect in mid-August:

1. It requires police officers to determine the immigration status of everybody they arrest before that person is released.
? The law says: "Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c)."

2. During any stop, detention or arrest, a police officer must try to determine a person's immigration status if the officer has reason to suspect the person is here illegally. An exception exists if making that determination might obstruct an investigation.
? The law says: "For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation."

3. People who officers suspect are here illegally must show one of four approved identification cards to prove they are in the county legally.
? The law says: "A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
? A valid Arizona driver license.
? A valid Arizona non-operating identification license.
? A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
? If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification."

4. In a change made Thursday night by the bill's sponsors, the law prohibits police from using race to establish reasonable suspicion that someone is here illegally. The original bill prohibited using "solely" race.
? The law says: "A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution."

5. The law makes it a state crime to transport, conceal, harbor or shield illegal immigrants. There is an exception for child-protective-services workers, first responders, ambulance attendants and emergency medical technicians.
? The law says: "It is unlawful for a person who is in violation of a criminal offense to:
"1. Transport or move or attempt to transport or move an alien in this state, in furtherance of the illegal presence of the alien in the United States, in a means of transportation if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien has come to, has entered or remains in the United States in violation of law.
"2. Conceal, harbor or shield or attempt to conceal, harbor or shield an alien from detection in any place in this state, including any building or any means of transportation, if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien has come to, has entered or remains in the United States in violation of law.
"3. Encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in this state if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that such coming to, entering or residing in this state is or will be in violation of law."

6. The law makes it a state crime for illegal immigrants to work in Arizona.
? The law says: "It is unlawful for a person who is unlawfully present in the United States and who is an unauthorized alien to knowingly apply for work, solicit work in a public place or perform work as an employee or independent contractor in this state."

7. The law also makes it a state crime for somebody to stop on the street and pick up somebody for work, although it may be hard to prove - and because of the way the law is written this may still be OK as long as the driver pulls off the road first.
? Passage: "It is unlawful for an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped on a street, roadway or highway to attempt to hire or hire and pick up passengers for work at a different location if the motor vehicle blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic. ? It is unlawful for a person to enter a motor vehicle that is stopped on a street, roadway or highway in order to be hired by an occupant of the motor vehicle and to be transported to work at a different location if the motor vehicle blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic."

Contact reporter Brady McCombs at bmccombs@azstarnet.com or 573-4213. Howard Fischer of Capitol Media Services contributed to this report.


Experts go over SB 1070's key points