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Surge is a Success!!

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6thGen, I'll go with the late President Eisenhower about the MI complex, as he knew more about the beast than you. The beneficiaries of this war are the corresponding industries supplying and supporting this voluntary war, not the American public. Since your last post, Senators Lugar and Voinovich have publically parted with GW in this loser. There will be no war memorial to this stupid, tragic conflict. I'm still waiting for you to sign up and join the war effort. Try Marines, or better yet, Army infantry. It will be an exciting education for you, and an introduction to adulthood.

What about when I've brought up patriotism, or said that there is no need for diplomacy? And do you believe that everyone that doesn't agree with you is bought and paid for? Or are these further examples of making up an argument for me that is easy to discredit? Maybe you should put a puppet show together like your friend who likes to flaunt his sexual deviancy.
 
Maybe you should put a puppet show together like your friend who likes to flaunt his sexual deviancy.

Oooh look Bob! Apparently ?we?re friends! And deviant friends too! Perhaps we can go strolling thru the Lounge one day, holding hands and flaunting our deviancy.



Puppet Show you say, hmm ???..Marionette is closer.

Clearly this is no puppet show I?m running here. I have seen the stuff that comes outa your head and its bad enough so I?m not sticking my hand up your backside, oh no???.I?ll just keep a safe distance and pull your strings from above.

Now dance for me, my little marionette, dance???..
 
What about when I've brought up patriotism, or said that there is no need for diplomacy?



Bob, I would recommend that you not waste your time, the endless posts along the general theme of ?Our enemies are animals therefore all our actions are justified? make the point clearly enough.

Besides, 6th is bound to run from this post soon, as the Surge is unraveling quickly and he isn?t likely to stand here to defend his support for it much longer.

Watch for that next inflammatory thread to come along any day now!
 
Clearly this is no puppet show I?m running here. I have seen the stuff that comes outa your head and its bad enough so I?m not sticking my hand up your backside, oh no???.I?ll just keep a safe distance and pull your strings from above.
Now dance for me, my little marionette, dance???..


:floor: :floor: You're killing me. :funn:
 
The Iraqi 'Nation'
By ROBERT MCFARLANE
June 27, 2007; Page A12

Baghdad

One reason put forward for why we ought not continue the fight in Iraq is that the Iraqis themselves aren't doing their part to unite their country against the insurgency. It's wrong.

Two weeks ago, I participated in a remarkable three-day gathering of more than 70 Iraqi clerics. It was held in Baghdad, was organized by Canon Andrew White, an Anglican priest in Iraq, and had one aim: Give Iraqi religious leaders a forum to listen to and engage one another. It was a phenomenal success.

The conference was encouraging from the outset because it attracted some of the top clerics in the country. They included close advisors to Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the senior Shiite prelate in Iraq; Moqtada Al Sadr, the firebrand leader of the Mahdi militia; and equivalent Sunni and Kurdish figures. They arrived clearly interested in fostering reconciliation among Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, and in the process reducing violence, disarming the militias and enacting into law a framework for a fair distribution of political and economic power. Many of the participants are members of the parliament.

Think about the meaning of what's described in the preceding paragraph. How often have you asked yourself over the past four years as violence has unfolded in Iraq, "Is it possible that the hatred and bitterness on display each day will ever evolve into reconciliation?" After attending this conference, I believe the answer is yes.

First, it is important to note that in Iraq the term "cleric" carries a different meaning than in the West. In Islam, one's personal obligation is to devote himself to improving the well-being of his political and economic setting. A concept known as jihad acknowledges for some sects the legitimacy of violence. Indeed, many of the participants at the conference have a violent history. So much the better, because it is only through getting those at the center of the conflict to engage with their adversaries that we will find the basis for a modus vivendi. And so it turned out at this conference.

The opening salvos from each of the three sects involved rhetorical statements of grievance -- each against the others. What was remarkable, however, was that the statements turned out to be pro forma and by the afternoon of the first day these very powerful figures began to listen to one another. What transpired was fascinating. Shiite participants acknowledged that their followers had intermarried with Sunnis for generations -- and vice versa -- and while all deplored the brutality of Saddam's regime no one counted it as legitimating a blood feud. The common theme was one of anger at the violence in Iraq and its primary driver, al Qaeda. But this rage came tempered by a commitment to put their country back together. Throughout the conference, they called it their "nation."

By the second day they began to focus on setting benchmarks to measure each other's commitment to what was being said. Each of the participants, men and women of great influence -- the elite of Iraq -- pledged to return to their provinces and seek to reduce violence, attempt to disarm the militias and (for those members of the parliament) to forge a compromise and pass critical legislation including the pending oil law -- a benchmark measure of the willingness of Shiites and Kurds to acknowledge the centrality of a secure economic future for Sunnis.

It is important to note that this conference was strongly supported by American Ambassador Ryan Crocker as well as by Gen. David Petraeus, commander of coalition forces in Iraq. Neither sought to intervene nor to drive the conference toward any particular conclusion. Both clearly understood, however, that broad-based political reconciliation is the linchpin of any hope for lasting stability in Iraq.

In Washington, Mr. White's effort to nurture the process of reconciliation has been quietly supported by the Defense Department. Some would dismiss such support as nothing but self-interest on the part of the Pentagon. But I believe there is more to it than that. After four very difficult and counterproductive years in Iraq, we now have leaders in place in Baghdad who understand the nature of this conflict. Ambassador Crocker and Gen. Petraeus intuitively know that a political accommodation acceptable to all is only stable foundation for peace in Iraq. And they also understand that such a foundation can only be laid by Iraqis.

On the last day of the conference the delegates pledged to reconvene as soon as possible. A final settlement will likely take some time. But current plans call for a second meeting to be held in Cairo in August. The irony of this possibly historic work is that it is operating on a shoestring. Mr. White has organized a nonprofit in the U.S. and is now trying to raise the fairly modest sums needed to keep this trialogue going. If you'd like to know more about his efforts, please send me a note.
 
I don't think anyone truly gains overall/long run if we lose in Iraq. Really dislike that us failing to rebuild/liberate a country/my peers being killed can be seen as a political advantage!
 

Read that a few days ago then saw a good followup on the article from NRO. I mentioned Burns' work as well on another thread, and it's nice to see some solid journalism from The Old Gray Lady. The fact that the surge is working is no surprise to anyone that is remotely well read.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWQ5NDkwMDNiMzZhODNlNjdhN2JiM2EyMjQ1N2ZmMWQ=

Some highlights:

"(T)he O?Hanlon-Pollack report makes plain one other truth: Those who persist in denying that General David Petraeus?s counterinsurgency strategy is having the desired, salutary effect and who insist that our defeat is inevitable are promoting a self-fulfilling prophesy."

"The irony is that should President Bush endure the hysteria and furor and prove able to give the gifted Gen. Petraeus the necessary time ? and I think he will ? his presidency could still turn out to be Trumanesque, once we digest the changes in Europe, the progress on North Korea, the end of both the Taliban and Saddam, and the prevention of another 9/11 attack. How odd that all the insider advice to triangulate ? big spending, new programs, uninspired appointments, liberal immigration reform ? have nearly wrecked the administration, and what were once considered its liabilities ? foreign policy, the war on terror and Iraq ? may still save it."

"What is most interesting about this article is not what it says, but who is saying it. If a conservative were to write such an article, the skeptics most assuredly would immediately dismiss it as repeating White House talking points. But the fact that two severe critics of the Bush administration?s management of the war ? from a think tank usually described as liberal to boot ? have published such a piece in the New York Times of all places might, under normal circumstances, give opponents of the war pause."
 
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