The Presidential debates.

[LuciferSam]

Obviously my words have had impact and must ring true. I've always felt that if Mitt Romney truly convinced people that he would govern as a centrist, he could easily beat Obama. The problem is that it would have made it tougher on him during the nominating process. So he pulls out the etcha sketch during the debate, much to the surprise of many. If he would truly reject the tea party and people were convinced of his sincerity, that would help him win swing states. Choosing Paul Ryan as a running mate doesn't help him in this regard, but people may forget that at least for a while. Still think about it, does anyone want Ryan to be potentially set up as a future president? I think the answer is no for most people. Hopefully this can be alluded to in the Biden vs. Ryan debate. I don't think Romney's tack to the middle is sincere. Romney will try to be whatever he thinks he needs to be. In Massachussetts he governed as a moderate and perhaps even a liberal. As presdient I expect him to govern as a nation building neoconservative and we'll probably see someone like John Bolton in a cabinet position. I think we know what the next four years would be like, unless our memories are short.

 

[Lake View Too]

mputnal3: It seems like you are saying that cooperation in Congress, even if they are passing extremely bad laws, is better than stagnation. I really do understand your frustration, but given the extreme views of much of the Republican Party, this would risk (a) increased defense spending (b) increased likelihood of meaningless wars in the middle east (c) increased taxes on the middle class (d) decreased financial regulation, leading to more likely recurring collapses in the economy (which mostly affect the middle class) and the list goes on. Right now, the stock market is the highest it has ever been in 5 years, even though the rest of the world is in rough economic times. Considering the fact that we have had a downturn in the economy since 2006 ( 6 years ago!) I feel, in general, we are very stabilized. No, it isn't full blast, but, then again, it shouldn't be. I'm certainly not crazy about stagnation in the Congress, but a neo-conservative alternative would help the rich get a whole lot richer, but it won't help anybody else.

 

[LuciferSam]

I'm more concerned about the neocon stance on foreign policy. Romney is actually whining about the fact that we got out of Iraq. As for the economy, the economy is going to recover no matter what, probably in the next year IMO. Companies are going to have to spend the cash they are sitting on and start hiring regardless of who gets elected. It is they only way they can remain competitive and maintain market share. If Obama is elected, they will do so begrudgingly, but if they don't expand, their competitors will. What alternative would they have? Wait four years to expand in hopes of a GOP presidency??

 

[Lake View Too]

I am beginning to think that Romney has substantial ties to the military/industrial complex and it wouldn't hurt his pocketbook to start a couple more wars. I'm not so sure the economy can rebound without the middle class having money to cause demand.

 

[mputnal]

If Obama is elected there is a real risk of stagnation because I do not believe corporations will spend. If you are the top of the corporate world and are holding all this cash from the middle class I do not believe you will be interested in suddenly doing anything that would support the economy if Obama is elected. They actually hate this man because he has suggested such a thing as raising their taxes. If Obama gets reelected their mission in life is very simple-humiliate him with whatever control they have and they have a lot of financial control over this economy. I would not be surprised to see more viscious attacks on his character. Now why would we want to vote for any party that is willing to go that far? No good answer for that except that hopefully people would finally realize that supply side economics no longer works. When the bubble pops this next time I think the American people will be in no mood for excuses from neo-conservatives and the tea party. This country will take the non compromising attitudes of the tea party and say we tried it your way and you failed us for the last time! Right now people just want to see congress working again and lets face it there is a slight chance the republicans will have learned something from moving to the center however I really doubt it would change their view of the economy until after another collapse with their hands fully in it. I wish Obama had more of whatever it takes to shake the leaders on both sides of congress and say you are not leaving this room until we find a way to move this economy and balancing the budget by both revenue and cuts....but he does'nt. Sometimes you have to vote for the worse of two evils in order to open the eyes of those blinded by partisanship...IMO

 

[Lake View Too]

You just said we should vote for the Republicans because they held the entire country hostage! You sound like a reasonable person until you start talking that. I'm not sure you understand that the Tea Party is the extremist wing of the Republican Party, and are pushing the party far more right than they have ever been. The no tax increase pledge has been signed by a vast majority of the entire Republican Party, and they will never compromise about anything. Obama gave them a chance to a 3 to 1 spending cuts to tax increase proposal and they turned it down. In the Republican primary debates, the question was raised to 10 to 1, and it was rejected by all the candidates. That is how extreme they are. I agree with LS that the economy should pick up after the election, regardless of the who is president, but the Big Corporations won't just gear up with more production unless the middle class has enough spendable money to create demand. Again, the stock market is doing fine, the rich investors are making money. Under the Ryan Plan, capital gains tax will be eliminated, leaving a gaping hole in revenues that will have to be filled by the working class. But your premise to vote for the worst choice just to break the stagnation is not a conceivably correct direction to take. If the Republican Party gains power this cycle, with the impact of super-pacs, the gerrymandering they have perfected in Texas spreading nationwide, and with voter suppression efforts increased, it is absolutely frightening what will happen to"democracy" in this country.

 

[LuciferSam]

mputnal3:
So we should vote Republican due to the Stockholm syndrome? Give me a break. Furthermore, personally things have never been better. I have no complaints about the last four years. I understand YMMV, but the economy and employment picture is improving and will continue to do so over the next four years no matter what. No, I have no intention of bonding with my captors.

 

[mputnal]

Everyone should vote for whoever they feel will be better for this country. I am only saying that if your candidate loses then do not blame it on the other side. Accept the outcome and lets all be Americans instead of democrats and republicans. What we need is for our congress to work again. We may agree or disagree about how to make this a better country but what is more important is that we are able to talk to each other about it. We can not let these elections divide us. We have to support whoever becomes our next President. If Romney wins because people believe that he is moving away from the tea party then that would be a good thing. If Romney wins because he lied about moving away from the tea party then that will eventually cripple the republican party because people are not as stupid as some think. Long term that is a win win situation. If Obama wins I no longer feel he can be an effective President and I wish that was not true because I like him as a person. Much of his ineffectiveness has been the result of the tea party's primary goal. The tea party is really bad for this country but they obviously connected to the voters. The sooner this bond with the voters can be broken the better but if Obama is re-elected that bond will continue. I believe that people are very smart and are demanding we shrink the deficit, strengthen the middle class and lower unemployment. Those things can only happen with a working congress. If Romney wins and fails to do these things it will be the end of the tea party and many of the republican ideals including supply side economics. So the only way I see that happening is if Romney wins. I can not see myself voting for Romney for many reasons but if I do it would be for this reasoning only. I do not believe that a Romney win will further the cause of the tea party but I could be wrong...

 

[Lake View Too]

Again, your logic eludes me. You are saying that the only way to progress in this nation is to elect Romney and have him fail??? Don't you understand he is allied with the Tea Party? If he got elected, and there was just the least right wing shift in the Senate, this country might never recover from right wing extremism. The polarization, and obstructionism you speak of is overwhelmingly a product of the Republican Party in the House. Romney has made it very clear that his number one priority will be to insure that the tax burden on the rich is reduced. The elimination of capital gains tax will insure that. It won't do a thing to strengthen the middle class. I also do not understand your repeating the mantra that the American public is too intelligent to let bad things happen. You underestimate the power of the Republican Party propaganda machine. Something like 50% of the population still believes that Iraq had a hand in 9-11 and they possess WMDs. And about an equal number of believe Obama is a Muslim. I'm sorry to sound so severe, as you are trying to sound conciliatory, but I feel there are some seriously sinister forces at work to cement the stranglehold that the wealthy have on this country, and if Romney gets elected, the deal will be done.

 

[mputnal]

Yes I believe that normal every day people just trying to make a living are not given enough credit. And the fact that you can not fully understand my logic means that this divide exists in part because of left wing elitism. I think Romney and the tea party has MISLED the American people but I hold out some hope that Romney is truly shifting away from the tea party. If you are right we have no hope for the next four years regardless of who is elected. I am only "choosing" not to believe the sky will fall if Romney is elected. I am choosing not to be bitter about this election if my candidate does not win. If Romney wins and you dig in on the left then you become part of this divide. I am just tired of the unbelievable intolerance of partisan politics. Maybe we need a third party that is not bound by absolute ideals and elitist behaviors but right now we have to find common ground. I agree with you about the tea party but you have to give main street more credit. Emotionally charged people will not listen so by focusing on postives we will eventually find something to agree on. My logic is my logic and I understand it is stretching reality but I believe it is better than being a part of this great divide in our country.