13,000 protest Governor's plan to change collective bargaining for public employees

[idlewind]

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Not all prominent republicans view these kind of walkouts as childish stompouts:

"Just as they've done in Wisconsin and Indiana, as an Illinois state rep Abe Lincoln once fled the state house -- exiting out a window -- to prevent a vote on a controversial bill. But all week, conservatives -- as well as a few confused pseudo-liberals -- have been advancing the argument that when a minority in a legislature uses parliamentary procedures it's some kind of assault on democracy. There's even an effort underway to recall the 14 Wisconsin senators who left the state last week.

Today, Think Progress reports that not all conservatives have bought into this argument.

Yesterday, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) defended his state?s vanished senators, saying their fleeing is ?perfectly legitimate?:

Daniels, a Republican, said earlier Tuesday he supported the Democrats? right to deny Republicans a quorum to do business and the rights of labor unions to protest at the Statehouse.

?The activities of today are perfectly legitimate part of the process,? he said. ?Even the smallest minority, and that?s what we?ve heard from in the last couple days, has every right to express the strength of its views and I salute those who did.?

Today, appearing on conservative radio host Laura Igraham?s show, Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) ? who has been one of Walker?s most reliable defenders and whom Walker says he talks to ?everyday? ? refused to condmen the senators? actions or Daniels? comments, saying to a displeased Ingraham, ?If you were there, you might end up walking out the chamber too!?......"

ThinkProgress ? GOP Govs. Daniels And Kasich Defend Dem Lawmakers? Walkout As ?Perfectly Legitimate?


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I don't care if they walk, if they are doing what they think is right then so be it. I just don't want to hear liberals complain when conservatives do the same things. ( remember the whining last summer about filibusters?)
Also, you have to face consequences for standing on your convictions- if they don't come to work they should not get paid. I don't get paid if I don't work, why are they any better?

 

[beachmouse]

Yesterday, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) defended his state?s vanished senators, saying their fleeing is ?perfectly legitimate?:

Daniels, a Republican, said earlier Tuesday he supported the Democrats? right to deny Republicans a quorum to do business and the rights of labor unions to protest at the Statehouse.

Good for Daniels. For a long time, the idea that minority voices had the right to take strong stands for what they believe in was one of the cornerstones of American democracy. (and why the US Senate has the quirks it does) The whole 'the winners should get to do anything they want' we're seeing lately really is a shift in the concept of American democracy.

 

[30ashopper]

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Not all prominent republicans view these kind of walkouts as childish stompouts:

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Well I do. The whole system falls apart if you have groups who refuse to involve themselves in the process set forth by the citizens of a state or nation. This action essentially involves taking the legislature hostage, and I commend Daniels and Walker for not negotiating with the hijackers. If anything goes wrong, if people get laid off, it's all on the democrats. They've abdicated their responsibility.

 

[scooterbug44]

They took a standard political action to try and force more discussion and negotiation on something so important to their constituents that 100,000 people are protesting it at their state capitol.

You obviously have a different view than I do, as to what is childish and irresponsible.

 

[beachFool]

When I returned from Vietnam in full uniform to LAX I saw no protesters, was not spat upon or shown disrespect in any form. For the next two years I flew around the country in uniform on military standby and still never experienced any disrespect. I believe you are hanging onto a story about a small number of people acting like a-holes not some big movement. Get over it, these types will always be around.

I turned 18 in 1974 and the draft was not an issue for me.

In the next few years I ran with various posses and there were several guys who served in SE Asia that drifted in and out.

None ever said a word about being disrespected.

In fact, more than one actually protested the war.

Thank you, poppy.

Tonight I will raise glass of cheer to my long-lost friend Skip Jackson.

 

[scooterbug44]

The vets I knew had much bigger concerns than protestors post-Vietnam.

 

[Andy A]

Andy, while you were serving in Vietnam my husband and I were serving overseas as well...I was both a protester and a supporter of the military. The two are not mutually exclusive...

The protests helped end the war and I am proud to have been a part of that--I only wish we had been able to help stop it before so many of my friends and family died.

I spent long hours in the Navy hospital helping care for wounded military--just off the medivac plane from SE Asia...and most of them would have welcomed a protest to end the hell they had just survived.

Yes, there were some people with their own agendas, there always are...but, I am just as proud of those young people in Wisconsin today(two of them are relatives of friends of mine) as I was of my friends and neighbors of the sixties--they are not what is wrong with our country today-- in fact, they just may help get it back to a rational place.

I stated earlier that "this was the last I say on the subject", but I cannot let this pass without a response. First of all, I am not going to argue with you about our different takes on the ideals, philosophies and principles that make this country tick. It is fruitless as well as a exercise in futility. You have your opinion and I have mine and that is fine. I will continue to express mine for those who lurk here so that they are aware there is more than one opinion express on this board.
Now, I was expressing my opposition to those who protested the war. It is my firm belief they caused the loss of at least seven aircraft and 14 crew members from my unit to be in vain and that was just in the first two month of my first tour. I am sorry you disagree with that assumption but I have it, nevertheless. Things like Jane Fonda sitting on a cannon in Hanoi will be with me as long as I live.
I certainly appreciate you and your husband caring for those evacuated from SE Asia by medivac. Maybe I was one of those and it would have been a great help to any airevaced from Vietnam. I also would have been one that did not welcome the protest that was, in my mind, causing my buddies to die, for what I considered, in vain. I forgoed a promotion and ten more years in the military because I did not want to return to Vietnam for a third tour, not because I was afraid of dying but because I was not going to die for a conflict we were obviously not trying to win.
BTW, I was not alone in this belief. As a major and friend of mine said one night while sitting at the bar in the Hawk's nest, "Andy you know what its going to take to get me back here for a 3rd tour". I said, "No, Joe, what". "Its going to take three sets of orders, one sending me over here, and one each for the two MPs who escort me on and off the plane".
As you are aware, there are definitely two sides to any situation. This is my side and regardless what you and your left leaning friends think, it is every bit as valid as yours. It is very simple. You think you were right and I think I, and those on my side were. We, in my opinion, disgraced ourselves, left the Vietnamese people in the lurch and created a situation that it took years from which to recover. But you're right. We ended the war but it my mind, disgracefully.
Many will disagree with this and that is their right as Americans. I believe that to a great degree, we have misplaced the pride and determination for self betterment in this county.
I certainly recognize and appreciate that you and poppy served our country. Both liberals, conservatives and those with no political pursuasion served. May it always be so.
One last thing. I do not subscribe to your contention that protests against the military and support of them are mutually exclusive. Once again, this is a difference of opinion between us. I will close with this. While I respect your obvious intelligence and freedom of opinion, on this issue, as well as many others, I most certainly disagree, which is my right just as it is yours to express whatever you wish. I only ask to be allowed to freely express my side of the issue.

 

[Rita]

Holy cow- I think this deserves its own thread. I think this is going to be HUGE!

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Scott Walker falls for a prank phone call, and Donald Rumsfeld recalls the lead up to the Iraq war.

February 23, 2011 - Donald Rumsfeld - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central


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[Rita]

Good for Daniels. For a long time, the idea that minority voices had the right to take strong stands for what they believe in was one of the cornerstones of American democracy. (and why the US Senate has the quirks it does) The whole 'the winners should get to do anything they want' we're seeing lately really is a shift in the concept of American democracy.

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The Wisconsin Assembly passed Gov Walker?s union bill in the middle of the night last night allowing only seconds for a vote. (It would have passed anyway, so it's curious why they would want to anger people even more by surprising the assembly democrats with the call to vote and shutting it off in seconds. That I don't get.)

Here?s an informative interview with John Nickols, correspondent for the Nation Magazine on the progression of the protest. Even more republicans have joined the protest now, which is expected to be upward of 100,000 on Saturday with groups protesting around the country tomorrow also.




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[LuciferSam]

I don't care if they walk, if they are doing what they think is right then so be it. I just don't want to hear liberals complain when conservatives do the same things. ( remember the whining last summer about filibusters?)
Also, you have to face consequences for standing on your convictions- if they don't come to work they should not get paid. I don't get paid if I don't work, why are they any better?

I think the difference between this and the filibustering is that there is a very real purpose to the current protests and the walkout by the state senators. The is a very real perceived threat of immediate harm to the livelihoods of the state workers, and they are justifiably taking action. The senators, who happen to agree with their stance, are making the correct moral decision. Fleeing the state is their only legal means.

On the other hand, the Republican filibustering was nothing more than politically motivated obstructionism. The WI protests emanate from some very real issues at the grass-roots level, while the party of "No" sillyblustering was just an attempt to weaken the Democratic party. In conjunction with a number of scare tactics, they were successful judging by the midterm results. I don' think their tactics are going to help them much where it really counts, which is the 2012 Presidential election. On that count, I think their efforts will have proven to be a failure. I can't grasp why they think continuously trying to vilify the middle class in possible swing states is going to help them.