Surge is a Success!!

[6thGen]

This isn't a simple issue, but bear with me. Let's oversimplify this. Let's say you are a 6th generational, born and bred, Floridian who lives in the panhandle of Florida. The UN decides to a new Partiton Plan and gives Alabama the panhandle previously occupied by you and your ancestors. There might be some anger, after all you have generations of family who have lived here and someone who doesn't own it is now giving it to someone else.

I am not a fan of the PLO or it's tactics, but the anger dates back way before Arafat came into the picture. I do believe Israel has a right to exist and feel our country is right to assist them. Yet I can understand the anger of a displaced people, surely we all can, if we think about it from their view point. The best way to resolve conflict is seeing the others point not trying to prove our own.

That being said I don't think there will ever be lasting peace in that area.
Heck we can't agree over who owns the beaches in Sowal. Seems like there's alot of people agruing over sand these days.

Lynn, Cheering, whatever you go by, I completely agree. I had actually typed out a lengthier version of a very similar scenario in response, but ended up erasing it because it drifted from topic. This has special relevance because we've already ceded some of our state to AL in the 19th century. If Alabama was taking the land as defense from Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville for using the area as a staging ground to attack Mobile, previously ceded, I'd be more pissed at the rest of FL for using our people and our area to advance their interests at my expense. As a 6th Generation native, with roots deep in the panhandle, I wouldn't appreciate the collateral damage from Mobile's attacking of those firing upon her, but I'd know where to place the blame. The difference is I would never make excuses for anyone blowing up a Baldwin County schoolbus or setting off a car bomb in downtown Fairhope. I would be willing to understand that.

 

[Cheering472]

Lynn, Cheering, whatever you go by, I completely agree. I had actually typed out a lengthier version of a very similar scenario in response, but ended up erasing it because it drifted from topic. This has special relevance because we've already ceded some of our state to AL in the 19th century. If Alabama was taking the land as defense from Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville for using the area as a staging ground to attack Mobile, previously ceded, I'd be more pissed at the rest of FL for using our people and our area to advance their interests at my expense. As a 6th Generation native, with roots deep in the panhandle, I wouldn't appreciate the collateral damage from Mobile's attacking of those firing upon her, but I'd know where to place the blame. The difference is I would never make excuses for anyone blowing up a Baldwin County schoolbus or setting off a car bomb in downtown Fairhope. I would be willing to understand that.

Point taken. I certainly offer no excuses for any terroristic attacks. But I can understand their anger without supporting their methods or agreeing with them on the issue.

 

[scooterbug44]

Chickpea isn't excusing or advocating terrorist attacks! At one point she called Arafat's actions/tactics despicable! She is just trying to make you understand WHY these people are resorting to violence.

 

[6thGen]

Point taken. I certainly offer no excuses for any terroristic attacks. But I can understand their anger without supporting their methods or agreeing with them on the issue.

I understand anger. I just wish that people would condemn the acts of terrorism without qualifiers. It's wrong, but... I understand, they are repressed, it's always been that way, etc. It is racist to imply that they are uncapable of behaving in a civilized manor.

 

[6thGen]

Chickpea isn't excusing or advocating terrorist attacks! At one point she called Arafat's actions/tactics despicable! She is just trying to make you understand WHY these people are resorting to violence.

"How very easy for you to point fingers at Arafat, and how convenient it is to ignore the despicable and arguably, terrorist acts of Sharon for example."

"Arafat merely brought attention to their cause (his tactics were despicable but they were those of war)."

"for you to state that the Palestinian identity is irrevocably tied to the destruction of Israel is plainly and simply wrong."

 

[Beemn]

Success? We have a draft!!!! We should draft children of republicans to fill the surge void!
WASHINGTON — The Army is considering whether it will have to extend the combat tours of troops in Iraq if President Bush opts to maintain the recent buildup of forces through spring 2008.

Acting Army Secretary Pete Geren testified Tuesday that the service is reviewing other options, including relying more heavily on Army reservists or Navy and Air Force personnel, so as not to put more pressure on a stretched active-duty force.

Most soldiers spend 15 months in combat with a guaranteed 12 months home, a rotation plan that has infuriated Democrats because it exceeds the service's goal of giving troops equal time home as in combat. In coming weeks, the Senate will vote on a proposal by Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., that would restrict deployments.

"It's too early to look into the next year, but for the Army we have to begin to plan," Geren told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "We have to look into our options."


Army spokesman Paul Boyce said, "If the future were to require such an option, it would be the last option on the list."

Gen. David Petraeus, Iraq war commander, suggested Sunday that conditions on the ground might not be stable enough by September to justify a drop in force levels, and he predicted stabilizing Iraq could take a decade. Earlier this year, Bush ordered the deployment of some 30,000 additional troops as part of a massive U.S.-led security push around Baghdad and the western Anbar province.

DEFEND AMERICA..... FIRE THE REPUBLICANS!

 

[Bob]

I believe we should occupy Gaza and tell the Palestinians they voted for the wrong party. I think we should bomb Iran and tell those folks we will reward them with more American culture if they can just do away with their religious leaders. Same with Pakistan if they don't reelect Musharraf. We should surge up to one half million troops in Iraq, and have a G.I. parked in front of every doorstep until they behave. Bomb the hell out of Syria because they meddle too much in Lebanon. Occupy Afghanistan for the next 100 years until everyone is literate and unwilling to grow poppies. Now reverse this insane scenario and imagine others meddling in our world. This is the myopic insanity of your foreign policy theory 6th.

 

[6thGen]

I believe we should occupy Gaza and tell the Palestinians they voted for the wrong party. I think we should bomb Iran and tell those folks we will reward them with more American culture if they can just do away with their religious leaders. Same with Pakistan if they don't reelect Musharraf. We should surge up to one half million troops in Iraq, and have a G.I. parked in front of every doorstep until they behave. Bomb the hell out of Syria because they meddle too much in Lebanon. Occupy Afghanistan for the next 100 years until everyone is literate and unwilling to grow poppies. Now reverse this insane scenario and imagine others meddling in our world. This is the myopic insanity of your foreign policy theory 6th.

If you can point to posts where I come close to aligning myself with this, I'd welcome it. I have addressed my position on Iran, you've ignored it because it ruins your strawman.

 

[Bob]

Your message is consistent. It involves micro-managing the world for your own benefit. Create a rational pretext for intervention and use the military to occupy sovereign states. War eliminates the need for diplomacy. Appeasement becomes a dirty word. The call for patriotism and support of one's own military might squelches debate. This thinking of "us against them" has an unlimited list of enemies and unforgiveable transgressions that promotes fear instead of free thinking courage in the face of adversity. The war state promotes the military industrial complex and minimizes personal liberty and self expression in the quest for victory over the "evil" enemy. War enriches the few at the expense of entire populations. It is utter madness to use unilateral war to change regimes in the absence of a credible threat or attack, and the argument you have taken 6thGen, is homegrown, apple pie, in-your-face radicalism.. It's why I think you need to pick up an m-16 and take a stroll in Fallujah for a few months, and see what it's like to screw around with people who had nothing to do with 9/11 and only want you to get the hell out of their neighborhood. Were you in their shoes, you'd be lining up a G.I. in your crosshairs. You would be entirely justified to defend your own turf. Right? Now go find some more corporate rationalizations for our never ending struggle against Islamo-fascism. You know where they are, between the BP and Lockheed-Martin display ads.

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Simple question for all of the "heavy hitters" on this thread...

Do you believe in Israel's right to exist?

The relevancy of this question is the following:
Regardless of "why" we're there now, what do you think will happen to Israel if we pull out now? Do you not think this action will embolden Israel's enemies to attack Israel?

American foreign policy needs to address American strategic interests.

BMBV, I?m not trying to pick on you but I get really frustrated with the ?let?s narrow down extremely complex issues to a few soundbites? arguments. We need to look at our interests first and they are numerous and complex enough without pursuing a course of action based on Israeli needs.

But to address your concerns:

While American and Israeli strategic interests do not always align, in this case I believe it is in both country?s interest to stabilize the current situation. The surge will not do that.

We are headed for a seriously de-stabilized region which is going to be very bad for both American and Israeli interests, in the long term.

However, I agree with Chickpea that Israel will continue to benefit from overwhelming American support and there is really no conceivable ?enemy? who can mount a serious threat to Israeli at this time.

But, Bush?s actions in the mid-east have put us on the road to a number of serious long term consequences for the US. And the current Israeli right wing government has put that country on the road to a number of serious long term consequences.

We both chose to make our beds, get ready to lie in them.

Summary to your question: Short term- probably OK; Long term- serious problems ahead.